On 7/25/13 4:17 PM, Paul Benedict wrote:
Stephen, those are great questions. Yet, I think these questions are riding
an assumption that PMC members are solely volunteering at Apache, because
the emphasis (as I interpret your words) is to place the Apache project
first/above other external contributions. Isn't that the heart of this
debate? A person who solely contributes to Apache and no other OS
organizations has no divided loyalties -- they do all their work here. But
what happens when contributions are here and elsewhere? I ask rhetorically,
to solicit answers, of course... and I see where this is going and what
historical processes within Maven are being addressed.
I don't think it's about whether you contribute elsewhere or not. It's
about whether you expect to do a ton of work outside the community here,
outside the commit logs and the review, in order to avoid the discussion
and potential for veto.
Working in this way opens the possibility for changing the rules for who
gets to contribute, especially when code diverges for long periods then
gets reconciled with a massive rebase.
ASF is supposed to be about more than code. We're supposed to be working
together on this project. I feel like the above hamstrings that whole
process.
And note: I'm only suggesting that the PMC - who is supposed to have the
long-term interests of *this* project at heart - be held to a higher
standard, to provide an example for the rest of the project. This is not
saying you're stuck working solely within Maven just because you're on
the PMC; it's saying that you should promote the health of the community
by making sure the processes in place work as well as possible.
ASF membership is supposed to be reserved for those who "get" the Apache
Way, and I've heard it said that PMC membership should imply ASF
membership. IMO, working for extended periods outside of the venues for
our community is not consistent with having the best interests of this
project in mind.
On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 4:05 PM, Stephen Connolly <
stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com> wrote:
Perhaps we could reframe the question a little then (as people seem to be
testing hung up on the committed wording)...
Should the PMC encourage people experimenting on new improvements to Maven
to do that work at the ASF? And if so, should they then practice what they
preach, and ensure that any experiments with Maven take place on the ASF
SCM servers (at least once such experiments become semi-serious or progress
enough not to cause egg-on-face syndrome)?
Shoud the PMC promote other Apache projects, or moving non-Apache projects
to Apache? (Right now, to work on an issue in core and effect the change
yourself you may need to establish merit with: Apache Maven, Eclipse Sisu,
Eclipse Aether, Plexus, Apache Commons, Classworlds, etc. Now it may be
fine with half of these at Eclipse and the ther half here... Or maybe
not... But that is a lot of projects where you need to establish merit and
perhaps maintain merit just to be able to commit directly (which sometimes
is the only way to effect the type of cross system changes that some of our
more obscure bugs may require... GIT makes this less of a requirement, as
patches on SVN are a PITA, though) )
These types of questions need resolution as they will, further down the
road, rise up again and cause wounds... Eg logback vs log4j2 is one that
simmers at the edge (any time anyone mentioned coloured loggers)
-Stephen
On Thursday, 25 July 2013, Paul Benedict wrote:
I don't think it is possible to force volunteer efforts and/or limit
development elsewhere. The idea of supporting a project is a vague
notion.
I have my opinions too but this language is clearly unenforceable and
impractical.
Cheers,
Paul
On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 9:30 AM, Markus Karg <k...@quipsy.de> wrote:
As a Maven user I think that everybody who is working on a project
should
behave the same. Hence, I would say, PMC members should rather
certainly
demonstrate how to live the community rules.
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Stephen Connolly [mailto:stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. Juli 2013 15:16
An: Maven Users List; Maven Developers List
Betreff: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want
the
Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 -
/maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)
There are two schools of thought amongst the current members of this
projects PMC.
Without wanting to deliberately tip my hand and reveal where my opinion
is, we would like to solicit the opinions if the community that we
serve.
Please give us your thoughts.
The topic is essentially:
Do you want the members of the Maven PMC to be social leaders of the
Maven
community, who's actions demonstrate the best community behaviour?
The alternative is that members of the Maven PMC are here purely to
complete the legal requirements that an Apache TLP has delegated to
PMCs
This is not black and white... The answer can be grey... And everyone
is
human so can make mistakes...
So community, what are you expecting?
- Stephen Connolly
On Thursday, 25 July 2013, wrote:
Author: jdcasey
Date: Wed Jul 24 23:21:58 2013
New Revision: 1506778
URL: http://svn.apache.org/r1506778
Log:
Adding section on PMC standards of community commitment
Modified:
maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md
Modified: maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md
URL:
http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project
-roles.md?rev=1506778&r1=1506777&r2=1506778&view=diff
======================================================================
========
--- maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md (original)
+++ maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md Wed Jul 24
23:21:58 2013
@@ -176,6 +176,29 @@ The Project Management Committee has the
* Voting on release artifacts.
* <!-- TODO: get the rest of these -->
+#### Standards for Community Commitment
+
+In the spirit of supporting the health of our community, Project
+Management Committee members refrain from actions that subvert the
+functioning of the committee itself.
+
+First, Project Management Committee members should not maintain
long-running
+forks of Maven code outside of the project itself. Making
significant
+changes to Maven code outside of the project displays a lack of
+investment in the community. Additionally, attempting to
re-integrate
+a large number of code changes in bulk overwhelms the ability of
+volunteers in the community to review (and potentially veto) the
+changes. This effectively thwarts the policing function of the PMC.
+
+Second, Project Management Committee members should not divert work
+on redesigning, reimplementing, or improving Maven code to
+alternative projects outside of this community for the purposes of
+reintroducing them as replacement for existing Maven code. While
+there is a danger he> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
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--
Cheers,
Paul
--
Sent from my phone
--
John Casey
GitHub - http://github.com/jdcasey
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