20033; and the suggestion
that using the 3rd fret to act as a pivot (for example to play 00232),
whilst certainly true, is a bit desperate:
In your previous message you actually said...
"This is also a very good and practical point"!
Try playing the progression A B C A at speed and insert a 4-3
suspension into chord C for good measure. It is not a question of being
desperate - it just doesn't make sense to do it other than in the standard
way.
my explanation for 20033: including that it results in a reasonably
equal mix of thirds and fifths in the harmony (especially if the
French/Corbetta tuning is employed) - see earlier.
Originally we were not talking about Corbetta - at least I wasn't. That is
a red herring.
Do you really think that the different voicings of the chord sounds
appreciably different. What about all the other chords which which double
the 3rd?
I feel that the problem with a lot of people on this list is that they are
not primarily baroque guitarists. Some of you at least play a wide range
of instruments in a wide variety of styles including pop music. You are
not thinking in terms of the specific styles of playing in the 17th century
but approaching the subject in an abstract way.
As far as harmony lessons are concerned- well - I learnt that rules are a
guide to good practice but don't have to be adhered to slavishly and there
are some circumstances in which they don't apply. And I studied harmony
and counterpoint to degree level.
Best
Monica
regards
Martyn
--- On Wed, 12/9/12, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
To: "RALPH MAIER" <rkcma...@shaw.ca>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Wednesday, 12 September, 2012, 20:36
I don't think that it is particularly convenient or good practice to
finger the chord in the way you suggest. It is quite awkward as
both
2nd and 4th fingers are in the way. I do wonder whether you have
actually tried it in conjunction with other chords. Some of
the chords are quite difficult to finger and playing sequences of
them
in quick succession does require a lot of practice. The fingering
of
them is given in many of the sources and is the optimum method.
Murcia is a different kettle of fish altogether and I think it would
not be wise to get involved with that.
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: [1]RALPH MAIER
To: [2]Monica Hall
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 10:58 PM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
The chord I'm referring to - the g chord with a doubled 3rd
(20003)
- can easily be fingered using 1 and 3, so I'm not sure I follow.
As a side note, then, I've noticed many passages in Murcia, for
example, where my inclination would be to use 4 instead of his
recommendation for 3 - and here I'm referring specifically to
passagework. Often times such fingerings in the sources raise
interesting questions regarding articulation, especially when
working
under the assumption that they would have shared contemporary tastes
regarding legato (not that I'm suggesting they would - on the
contrary). On the other hand, it could also be something as simple
as
personal preferences.
RM
----- Original Message -----
From: Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Date: Monday, September 10, 2012 2:09 pm
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
To: RALPH MAIER <[2]rkcma...@shaw.ca>
Cc: Vihuelalist <[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> If anything I would say there is a definite preference for using
> the 4th finger but I don't think it really bears on this
> topic. Whichever of the two chord fingerings you
> chose the 1st course must be stopped at the 3rd fret with the
> 4th/little finger - whatever you wish to call it.
>
> Chords are sometimes re-fingered to free the 4th finger for
> passing notes and to insert 4-3 suspensions into chords.
>
> Monica
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: RALPH MAIER
> To: Monica Hall
> Cc: Martyn Hodgson ; Vihuelalist
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
>
>
> Interesting thread. Just a thought, and I'm obviously
> spitballing, but I wonder if there is anything that might be
> gleaned from this observation in regards to the use of the
> fourth finger in general. Is there anything in the sources that
> might suggest its avoidance/preference? Just curious.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Monica Hall <[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Date: Monday, September 10, 2012 10:58 am
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
> To: Martyn Hodgson <[5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> Cc: Vihuelalist <[6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>
> > Well - I pointed out in my original message that
> the
> > earliest sources of
> > alfabeto - i.e. Montesardo and the Cancionero Bezon -
> actually
> > give the
> > 20003 version. I think that the reason for this
> is that on
> > the 4-course
> > guitar the equivalent is 0003 and initially the most
> convenient
> > note on the
> > 5th course was just added.
> >
> > So the real question is why did they
> change? This
> > morning when I was
> > practicing I tried playing Chord A with an unstopped
> 2nd course
> > in all the
> > relevant places and it just is less
> convenient. The
> > 3rd finger is floating
> > above the fingerboard with nothing to do. And as
> Stewart
> > pointed out the
> > commonest progression is A - C , G major/D major
> and
> > stopping the 2nd
> > course at the 3rd fret is more secure. It
> provides a pivot
> > as you shift
> > from one to the other. It does seem to me that the
> reason for
> > the change was purely practical.
> >
> > From a musical point of view the difference in the way
> the two
> > versionssounded seemed negligible to me. I
> don't
> > think that doubling the 3rd was an
> > issue.
> >
> > I also pointed out that some of the other chords have
> the 3rd
> > doubled. In particular the C major chord -
> > B. Nobody seems bothered about that.
> >
> > Really - I stick by what I have said. The
> chords are
> > arranged in the way in which they fit conveniently on
> the fingerboard.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Monica
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson"
> > <[7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>To: "Monica Hall"
> > <[8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>Cc: "Vihuelalist"
> > <[9]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>Sent: Monday, September
> 10, 2012
> > 4:13 PM
> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Dear Monica,
> > >
> > > When you write 'The point is
> that the
> > alfabeto chords (and other
> > > chords) are arranged in the way that most
> conveniently
> > fits them on to
> > > the guitar fingerboard. The order of the
> notes and
> > which ones are
> > > doubled is determined by practical
> considerations
> > not by what anyone
> > > may have learnt in their harmony
> course.'
> > your second sentence about
> > > the irrelevance of formal rules of harmony
> seems to me
> > to accurately
> > > reflect how these chords probably became established.
> > >
> > > However the first sentence begs the original
> question:
> > viz. why show
> > > as 20033 rather than 20003? Here,
> as others
> > have already pointed
> > > out, I really do think there was some conscious
> decision
> > made (by
> > > strummers before the days of recorded
> alfabeto) -
> > in my view probably
> > > to duplicate the fifth rather than the third
> because the
> > latter was
> > > already strong being the first course struck in
> a
> > downwards strum.
> > >
> > > Also if there is a bourdon on the fourth course
> (ie the
> > Corbetta/> French tuning which might reflect an
> earlier
> > practice than generally
> > > recorded - certainly the four course guitar had
> an
> > octave on the fourth
> > > course) if the 2nd course were taken open
> you
> > would only have one
> > > string (the higher of the fifth course) for the
> upper
> > octave fifth but
> > > four strings for the thirds; in this case
> fingering the 2nd
> > > course gives more equality between the thirds
> and fifths....
> > >
> > > rgds
> > >
> > > Martyn
> > >
> > > --- On Mon, 10/9/12, Monica Hall
> > <[10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> > >
> > > From: Monica Hall
> <[11]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > > Subject:
> [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
> > > To: "Chris Despopoulos"
> > <[12]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>>
> Cc:
> > "Vihuelalist" <[13]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > > Date: Monday, 10 September, 2012, 14:32
> > >
> > > Well - I think we are getting a bit bogged down here.
> > > The point is that the alfabeto chords
> (and other
> > chords) are arranged
> > > in the way that most
> > > conveniently fits them on to the guitar
> > fingerboard. The order of the
> > > notes
> > > and which ones are doubled is determined by
> > > practical considerations not by what anyone may
> have
> > learnt in their
> > > harmony
> > > course.
> > > Most of them can't be easily be rearranged or
> refingered
> > and in the
> > > context in
> > > which they are used there is not a lot of point
> in doing
> > so. In what
> > > circumtances would you want to use one form of
> Chord A
> > rather than
> > > another?
> > > The chords in Sanz' Labyrinth are the same old
> basic
> > chords played in
> > > different positions on the fingerboard.
> They are
> > not revoiced or
> > > re-arranged in any way. What Sanz
> has in
> > mind is plaing different
> > > harmonic progressions at different pitches not
> altering
> > the chords
> > > themselves.
> > > I don't perceive music in alfabeto as being a
> way of
> > "getting you to
> > > play the guitar" or some sort of stepping stone
> to doing
> > something> superior. It is a
> perfectly valid
> > tradition in its own right. After
> > > all people had been playing the 4-course guitar
> for
> > years before
> > > alfabeto came on the scene. Obviously you can
> do things
> > like inserting
> > > 4-3 suspensions and 7th into the chords and
> adding
> > ornamentation and of
> > > course you can write out completely different
> chords in
> > tablature.> Improvisation doesn't mean doing
> something
> > completely out of character.
> > > Monica
> > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris
> Despopoulos" > > <[1][14]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
> > > To: "Monica Hall"
> <[2][15]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; "David
> > van Ooijen"
> > > <[3][16]davidvanooi...@gmail.com>
> > > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4][17]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > > Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 9:22 AM
> > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
> > > > I have an opinion -- Giving that
> opinion
> > may open me up to some
> > > > "clarification", which is why I'm
> giving
> > it. In other words, if
> > > I'm
> > > > wrong about this, please let me know!
> > > > When playing the modern guitar,
> I'll
> > choose to add the D on the 2nd
> > > > course (from high to low) or not,
> at
> > will. Considerations include
> > > > practical (as Monica stated for
> chord
> > changes), leading notes, or
> > > > general emphasis within the
> musical
> > context. Everybody learns the
> > > G
> > > > chord (modern) in various ways,
> and then
> > later sees other people
> > > > playing it with variations.
> At some
> > point, one tries all the
> > > > variations at least once.
> > > > My opinion is that the Alfabeto
> is there
> > to "get you playing the
> > > > guitar"... Same as
> rudimentary chord
> > books today. See your
> > > typical
> > > > Ukulele book, for example.
> Sanz
> > expanded on the Alfabeto with his
> > > > Labarinto, and makes the claim
> that with
> > all these chords you can
> > > now
> > > > compose whatever variations you
> want
> > (roughly paraphrased from
> > > > memory). But (again, my
> opinion)
> > this is still a guideline meant
> > > to
> > > > illustrate the wonderful quality
> of the
> > guitar, the displacement of
> > > > chord forms to other positions,
> yielding
> > other chords. I believe
> > > > chords, as a concept, were fairly
> new at
> > the time, and this
> > > Labarinto
> > > > was quite the innovation.
> > > > Further, my opinion is that you
> will reach
> > a level of playing where
> > > > your taste dictates your answers
> to these
> > types of questions, in
> > > the
> > > > given situation. This is
> the level
> > you want to reach, and I think
> > > Sanz
> > > > would want you to reach it.
> If you
> > don't know how or why to play a
> > > G
> > > > chord, by all means, use the
> Alfabeto
> > religiously. If you have
> > > moved
> > > > to the next level, take the
> Alfabeto as a
> > guideline, but add your
> > > own
> > > > flavor to the music.
> > > > I forget where I read it, and it
> was in
> > the context of interpreting
> > > > Baroque music on the MODERN
> guitar, but
> > somebody said (again,
> > > > paraphrased from memory), "In
> that time,
> > any musician who failed to
> > > > improvise on a piece was a boring
> bird
> > indeed." Something to that
> > > > effect. (I imagine
> Richelieu fell
> > into that category... But that's
> > > > another topic.)
> > > > cud
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
__________________________________________________________________>
>
> > > > From: Monica Hall
> <[5][18]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > > > To:
> David van Ooijen
> > <[6][19]davidvanooi...@gmail.com>> >
> Cc:
> > Vihuelalist <[7][20]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2012
> 5:23 PM
> > > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on
> Baroque Guitar
> > > > My ears have no problem with
> doubling the
> > 3rd. As I pointed out
> > > > Chords B, & and N all have the
> major 3rd
> > doubled. And the
> > > consonant
> > > > form of chord L has the minor 3rd
> > doubled. That doesn't seem to
> > > have
> > > > bothered guitarists in the 17th
> century
> > and it shouldn't bother you
> > > > today either.
> > > > I doubt whether you have
> encountered the
> > dissonant form of Chord L
> > > in
> > > > your harmony lessons
> either. That is
> > a purely practical device.
> > > > Monica
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David
> > van Ooijen"
> > > > <[1][8][21]davidvanooi...@gmail.com>
> > > > To: "Vihuelalist"
> > <[2][9][22]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>>
> > Sent:
> > Sunday, September 09, 2012 10:12 PM
> > > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on
> Baroque Guitar
> > > > > On 9 September 2012 23:08,
> Monica Hall
> > > <[3][10][23]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >> I don't think that doubling
> the 3rd is
> > an issue or that what
> > > people
> > > > learn in
> > > > >> their harmony lessons today is
> > particularly relevant. I doubt
> > > > whether
> > > > >> guitarists at the beginning of
> the 17th
> > century thought in those
> > > > terms.
> > > > >
> > > > > Neither do today's guitarists
> who chose
> > for 33002(3), but their
> > > ears
> > > > > tell them it's the better
> choice. In
> > harmony lessons you just
> > > learn
> > > > to
> > > > > give names to what your ears
> already
> > told you. In other words,
> > > don't
> > > > > turn the argument around.
> > > > >
> > > > > David
> > > > >
> > > > > -- *******************************
> > > > > David van Ooijen
> > > > > [4][11][24]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
> > > > > [5]www.davidvanooijen.nl
> > > > > *******************************
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > To get on or off this list see
> list
> > information at
> > > > >
> > [12][25]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > References
> > > >
> > > > 1. mailto:[13][26]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
> > > > 2. mailto:[14][27]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > > > 3. mailto:[15][28]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> > > > 4. mailto:[16][29]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
> > > > 5. [17][30]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > >References
> > >
> > > 1.
> >
>
>[31]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Espopoulos_chr
iss@yah
oo.com > > 2.
> >
>
[32]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
3.
> >
>
>[33]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@
gmail.c
om > > 4.
> >
>
[34]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmout
h.edu>
5.
[35]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> > > 6.
> >
>
>[36]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@
gmail.c
om > > 7.
> >
>
[37]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmout
h.edu>
8.
> >
>
>[38]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@
gmail.c
om > > 9.
> >
>
[39]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmout
h.edu>
10.
[40]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> > > 11.
> >
>
>[41]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@
gmail.c
om > > 12.
[42]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > > 13.
> >
>
>[43]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@
gmail.c
om > > 14.
> >
>
[44]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmout
h.edu>
15.
[45]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> > > 16.
> >
>
>[46]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@
gmail.c
om > > 17. [47]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
> > >
> >
> >
> >
--
References
1. mailto:[48]rkcma...@shaw.ca
2. mailto:[49]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
To get on or off this list see list information at
[50]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rkcma...@shaw.ca
3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
5.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
7.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
8. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
9. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
10. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
11. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
12.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%9espopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
13. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
14.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%9espopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
15. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
16.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%9avidvanooi...@gmail.com
17. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
18. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
19.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%9avidvanooi...@gmail.com
20. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
21.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%9avidvanooi...@gmail.com
22. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
23. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
24.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%9avidvanooi...@gmail.com
25. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
26.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%9avidvanooi...@gmail.com
27. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
28. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
29.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%9avidvanooi...@gmail.com
30. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
31.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Espopoulos_chriss@yah
32. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
33.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@gmail.c
34. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
35. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
36.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@gmail.c
37. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
38.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@gmail.c
39. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
40. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
41.
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42. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
43.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@gmail.c
44. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
45. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
46.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@gmail.c
47. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
48. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rkcma...@shaw.ca
49. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
50. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
