There are several reasons why Rossi's and DGT's devices are suspect in my opinion, but all of them would become moot if a self sustaining mode were demonstrated in which they ran without the power connected and for a very long period of time. I am always concerned about a heat pump simulator type of device. In these systems the output heat energy is several times the input electrical energy but they can not produce excess energy if operated in a loop where one acting as a heat engine generator combination powers the other. The excess heat appearing at the output is obtained from the environment and does not represent any new energy.
I agree that there may be subtle reasons why an early prototype might not be able to power itself, but a high power system such as the ECAT followed by a generator should not exhibit this problem. The relatively low COP of the ECAT does complicate the issue, but the specified value of 6 should be adequate as long as the output temperature and pressure can drive a generator efficiently. It does concern me that the ECAT performance is dangerously close to that of a high efficiency heat pump. DGT indicates that their Hyperion device has far more gain and the heat pump equivalent would not apply. You are correct that my suggestion that an useful energy source should supply its activation power is too broad. Many devices depend upon external energy sources such as solar or wind and would not operate on their own. I suggest that a device of the mechanical nature discussed which is an electrical generator should fall into the category of self powering and thus self sustaining. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Eric Walker <eric.wal...@gmail.com> To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Sent: Fri, Mar 23, 2012 11:20 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Thane Heins continues with his bold claims I apologize -- I missed some of the early context for this thread. I just want address a general point or two. On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 6:46 PM, David Roberson <dlrober...@aol.com> wrote: The reason for the self sustaining requirement is to ensure that there are no false measurements taking place. Agreed -- being able to show that an isolated system can run on its own is good. This is a nice way to dispel any questions about where the energy comes from. ny useful source of energy should be capable of supplying the power required to make it function. This seems too strong a statement. So far neither Rossi nor DGT have demonstrated this goal and until that is proven, their devices are suspect. Their devices are suspect. But this is not because DGT and Rossi failed to demonstrate that they can operate in a self-sustaining mode. It's 2012. We should be able to measure the inputs and outputs for a system that has been running a long time, even one that is connected to power, and demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that more energy is coming out of it than is going into it. To my view, self-sustaining operation is a nice-to-have and not a must-have for showing that a device produces more energy than can be accounted for by known chemical reactions. There may be subtle reasons that it's necessary to keep early prototypes connected to a power supply to keep a reaction going. Eric
