I realize now that it is not proper to separate the various forms of energy that an atom can harbor into categories when figuring temperature. My thoughts have been directed toward divide and conquer where motion was the kinetic portion and elevated orbitals the stored part of the whole atom energy budget. I did this because it is possible for the atom to radiate the extra internal energy in the form of a photon to reach nearly absolute zero when at rest to an observer without having to interact with other forces or matter. Actually, a single atom can radiate a photon or several and end up stationary provided the observer takes into account the kick due to the emissions in his choice of observational frame.
But as you say, energy is energy and has to be taken into consideration. My understanding of Casimir effects and how they modify local time behavior is lacking so I punt on that one. And zero point energy does not result in any net motion since that would lead to a violation of COE or COM. I still question the existence of zero point energy but might be convinced otherwise with the proper experimental example. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Roarty, Francis X <francis.x.roa...@lmco.com> To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Sent: Thu, Jun 13, 2013 10:13 am Subject: RE: [Vo]:BEC transforms photon frequency Guys, I think the redundant ground states make a big difference to temperature when gas loads heavily into these confined regions, the clusters that form in these cavities exist in a region where longer vacuum wavelengths are excluded. This is exactly opposite to gas atoms with near luminal velocity appearing to slow down time from our perspective because these atoms are traveling along the hypotenuse between time and space from our stationary perspective. In the same way time is occurring must faster for these gas atoms inside the casimir cavity. They are physically confined to tiny spatial velocities but unlike other confinement mediums Casimir geometry reduces longer vacuum wavelengths ..instead of slowing time along the hypotenuse as in the typical relativistic scenario, this “shielding” accelerates time by reducing the average length of these virtual pairs. If the unit time is reduced while at the same time the atom motion is physically confined into a cluster then temperature may be much lower from our perspective, related to these fractional values. IMHO this is what Naudt’s meant in his paper framing the hydrino as relativistic hydrogen –not the near luminal hydrogen ejected from the suns corona but rather the negative, shielded hydrogen provided by nano geometry. Fran From: MarkI-ZeroPoint [mailto:zeropo...@charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 5:29 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: EXTERNAL: RE: [Vo]:BEC transforms photon frequency Dave: Yes, the process of forming a BEC requires that atoms either shed quanta of energy, and/or, the more energetic atoms bounce out of the ‘trap’, leaving only the cooler ones… the walls of the trap can be lowered a little at a time to repeat this process until only the coldest atoms remain. “But temperature is defined by kinetic energy relative to an observer…” Well, perhaps that is one way that temperature is described, however, I don’t think it applies here… let me explain another view. When you shrink oneself down to the size of a single atom, isolated from everything else can still be Let’s start with a *single* atom at *0K*, isolated from anything else; i.e., in a perfect vacuum chamber. This atom will be pretty much still, and only a very minor tendency to move, but NOT due to any *internal* energy; but due to its being jostled around by the vacuum (zero-point energy). For our discussion, it could be considered motionless. Why? Because when one removes all thermal energy from an atom, the harmonic relationships between its constituent subatomic particles are in perfect balance; all its internal oscillators are in harmonious resonance (geez, that sounds soooo newage wooo-wooo), thus, all momentum vectors (forces) of those oscillators are balanced so the atom is pretty much motionless. ADD just a single quantum of heat, and that quantum gets absorbed into only ONE internal oscillator at a time, causing momentum imbalance, and that is what causes the atom to begin vibrating. The more heat quanta added, the more the internal oscillators are out of balance and the more the atom vibrates. The idea that an atom at any temperature above 0K MUST have a linear/translational velocity is NOT always the case… it is possible to restrain an atom and add heat quanta to it without it shooting off in a given direction… add enough heat to it and yes, it will break away from what’s restraining it (E or B fields) and go shooting off… but again, we’re talking the near perfect chamber (~0K) condition. Add heat to Ed’s linear arrangement of hydrotons in that elongated vacuum chamber, and the entire ensemble will begin to oscillate along whatever axis represents the least resistance – most likely the longest axis of the chamber. -Mark Iverson From: David Roberson [mailto:dlrober...@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 12:59 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:BEC transforms photon frequency If a perfect vacuum is defined as an area of space that has no particles of the normal types such as atoms, protons, neutrons or electrons then you appear to have found one. I believe that BECs also require that the temperature be very nearly zero K among the interacting particles. But temperature is defined by kinetic energy relative to an observer and so a single particle is at rest when watched by a frame moving in the same manner. So, the first piece of the BEC is fine, but when the second particle and following ones are added, you would need to find a way to eliminate their relative velocities which generally requires very precise cooling. In our environment, there are at least a couple of serious problems to overcome in order for a BEC to operate. First, I am not confident that enough space is available to cram more than a few Ds into the NAE. Second, even if you were able to cool the Ds by some means they would be banged around by the metal crystal atoms continuously and hence reheated. If I recall many of the observations used to prove that they were formed could only be made at near absolute zero. Motion destroyed the wave nature of the BEC system. For these and other reasons mentioned recently by Ed, I suspect that BEC activity is not a main contributor to what we are seeing. The jury is still out concerning other coupling behavior such as by entanglement. I have been searching for some process that allows energy to be shared among many during one fusion reaction. This might work both ways....operating together the coulomb barrier may be much lower to a group of Ps or Ds. Dave -----Original Message----- From: MarkI-ZeroPoint <zeropo...@charter.net> To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Sent: Wed, Jun 12, 2013 2:28 pm Subject: RE: [Vo]:BEC transforms photon frequency Jones, You may not have followed the thread I started, ‘Of NAEs and Nothingness’… It was like pulling teeth, but I think Ed and I established some common ground that when a ‘dislocation’ or void forms in the host material, and *before* any H or D diffuses into this void, it is a (near perfect) vacuum. There could be E or B fields present, but those are not ‘matter’, so the NAE is essentially a ‘vacuum chamber’ at 0K, and likely better than anything that our hi-tech vacuum pumps can produce. Is this not the kind of ‘chamber’ which could support the formation of BECs??? Let’s continue on with that line of reasoning… When any atom enters the NAE, the only energy it has is what it brings with it. The E or B fields within would likely cause the atom to align itself with those fields to reach a minimal energy orientation. If the fields serve to (physically?) restrict atomic motion or size or shape, then that could initiate photon emission of some of the thermal energy which the atom had when it entered the NAE… If enough thermal energy is shed, and this happens to a number of such atoms in the NAE, they would spontaneously form a BEC. In the BEC experiments that I’ve read, they use laser and/or *magnetic* evaporative cooling to reduce the temp of the atoms until, at some threshold temp (in the nanoKelvins), they coalesce into the BEC. Condensation of magnons has occurred at 14K (see excerpt below), which is orders of magnitude higher than with the usual BEC setup (atomic gases). Here is an excerpt from the Wikipedia entry on BECs: “The Bose–Einstein condensation also applies to quasiparticles in solids. A magnon in an antiferromagnet carries spin 1 and thus obeys Bose–Einstein statistics. The density of magnons is controlled by an external magnetic field, which plays the role of the magnon chemical potential. This technique provides access to a wide range of boson densities from the limit of a dilute Bose gas to that of a strongly interacting Bose liquid. [EMPHASIS] A magnetic ordering observed at the point of condensation is the analog of superfluidity. In 1999 Bose condensation of magnons was demonstrated in the antiferromagnet TlCuCl3.[18] The condensation was observed at *temperatures as large as 14 K*. Such a high transition temperature (relative to that of atomic gases) is due to the greater density achievable with magnons and the smaller mass (roughly equal to the mass of an electron). In 2006, condensation of magnons in ferromagnets was even shown at room temperature,[19][20] where the authors used pumping techniques.” Still haven’t found the bottom of the rabbit hole… ;-) Relevant links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bose–Einstein_condensate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_evaporative_cooling http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_cooling -Mark Iverson From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 8:53 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:BEC transforms photon frequency From: Edmund Storms I'm saying that BEC is known to form near absolute zero but has not been shown to form BETWEEN ATOMS at higher temperatures. People have PROPOSED BEC formation at high temperature between energy states but this has not been fully demonstrated or shown to apply to atoms. I will go further than Ed on this one. The BEC simply CANNOT form at higher than absolute zero in real matter- and certainly not at several hundred degrees C. There is a pretty good thread on Slashdot on this subject, and it is almost by definition. Polaritons are not real matter. That these are only an abstraction should be obvious to all … but apparently, it has not registered with a few of us that polaritons are imaginary “quasiparticles” - and although they may be useful as descriptive aids for how collective systems operate in practice, including LENR – they are fictitious. You do not need a physics text to understand the implications of higher temperature BECs in real matter – a “Cat’s Cradle” will suffice, thanks to a fabulous old metaphor. So - even if you can find a paper on room temperature BECs in polaritons or magnons (my favorite quasiparticle for LENR), there are no paper for BEC real matter significantly above absolute zero. At least none that I know of - and in general, it should be obvious that if this kind of condensation could happen with real particles in real-world situations, then we (humanity) would be in trouble. Common sense should tell you – if this could happen easily – it is the proto-typical “Ice-nine” syndrome… On the one hand, Ice-nine is what would put the “cold” back into cold fusion, but thankfully or sadly, depending on your PoV, quasiparticles are not particles. Jones
