Mia berkata :
Mengikuti diskusi mba Lina-Chae, di tempat lain pada saat bersamaan
saya berdiskusi dengan topik yang (hampir) sama, warisan perempuan -
dengan beberapa die-harder dari faithfreedom yang merajalela di
WashingtonPost kolom Karen Armstrong. Di bawah saya sharing beberapa
posting.
======================================================
Jano - ko =
Mia, tologn dong jelaskan dulu apa itu "faithfreedom" oke ?, biar teman -
temin bisa asyik membahasnya.
Kalau mia tidak bisa menjelaskan apa itu "faithfreedom" maka jano-ko
mengajukan usul, bagaimana kalau you and jano-ko diskusi yang ringan-ringan aja.
:)
Selamat siang.
Mia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Mengikuti diskusi mba Lina-Chae, di tempat lain pada saat bersamaan
saya berdiskusi dengan topik yang (hampir) sama, warisan perempuan -
dengan beberapa die-harder dari faithfreedom yang merajalela di
WashingtonPost kolom Karen Armstrong. Di bawah saya sharing beberapa
posting.
"I find that Ahmed's view and the manner of discussion has
similarities with those of Muslim fundamentalist-literalist. As it
happens now, in the other mailing list (Indonesian muslimah), two
friends are engaging with almost the same kind of topic, women
inheritance."
Salam
Mia
========================================
AHMED: "I cannot understand how Muslims can pick and choose the bits
of the Quran they like - it's not a dinner menu or a smorgasbord -
you don't get to pick and choose - you are commanded to obey the
Quran and the Sunnah - not make up your own rules as you go along."
MIA: This is fundamentalist-literalist way of thinking - only of the
opposite view. There are fundamentalists in Indonesia of course. It
seemed to me the fundamentalism grew in Indonesia along with the
urbanisation and modernisation.
AHMED: Muslims have no right to re-write the Quran. If you think you
can re-interpret the Quran to your liking - go ahead. This just goes
to show you disagree with the original Quranic proposition. What is
your reasoning for doing so? Do you find it unjust and distaste?
Who died and made you a prophet? Nobody. As a Muslim you have been
commanded to follow the Quran and Sunnah. Muhammad in the Quran laid
down the inheritance laws for Muslims - he told Muslims to only give
daughters 1/2 the inheritance of sons. That is unambiguous and
clear. If you want to change it - go ahead - what you are doing is
merely proving my point - and that the Quran is unjust.
--------------
AHMED: "Also, for you Muslimahs - please find out if I am telling
you the truth about the character and behavior of your prophet - who
murdered opponents, enslaved innocent women and children and sold
them in the mosque, tortured enemies and commanded his followers to
kill all those people in surrounding countries who do not want to
convert to Islam. Oh... he also took sex slaves. These are all in
the sahih hadiths."
MIA: This is not re-interpretation, this is accusation. I would ask
myself hard questions if I had such thoughts about all prophets.
Example of re-interpretation, inheritance (I'll try to make it
simple):
Context: During the ignorance period (jahilliyyah), women status
were just like property and cattles. And there was expensive mahr, a
price to pay for the tribe for giving their women. Please note, this
was hard realities faced by women at that time.
Text of Quran and Hadis: daughters got 1/2 of sons' inheritance.
Lesson learned: Thus, the idea of women having property, even a half
of men - was revolutionary. The idea was to bring the sense of
equality among men and women during the transition period.
Reinterpretation.
Based on the idea of maintaining equality among men and women,
nowadays the inheritance should be more or less equal. Women are now
more independent and we are moving from communal lives into
individual. Mahr (dowry) remains as a symbol, it lost its social-
economic function. The sense of equality should reflect all these
realities.
This way, we live through equality which is reflected in the way we
interpret the text. And I believe this is the legacy that prophet
Muhammad had left to us. We are the agents who could make the
difference of re-interpreting the living Quran.
AHMED: totally wrong. That is just your claims. Khaditja was a
successful business woman - she was independent and wealthy. The
rights of pagan Arab women were far superior to that of Muslim
women. They had full and equal rights - before Muhammad came along.
They didn't have to cover themselves or make themselves subservient
to any man. That is true equality. Muhammad stuffed that up with his
sexist misogynistic views. He turned women into chattel. Now you
twist things such that he liberated them.
Your prophet gave you only 1/2 the inheritance of males and your
testimony is only worth 1/2 that of males because you have 1/2 of
the intelligence of males. Those are the opinions of your prophet. I
didn't make this up. Muhammad did.
How do you think this is equality in any sense?
Oh... and he did say Muslims can 'beat' their wives and engage in
polygamy and have as many sex slaves as they like - how is that
equality from a woman's perspective?
=================================
Ahmed Hussain:
Mia,
What accusation you want me to prove? Go ahead and pick one and I
will prove the accusation to you.
Sex slavery? No problem.
Murder of opponents? No problem.
Torture of enemies? No problem.
Banditry? No problem.
Enslaving women and children? No problem.
Selling slaves in the mosque? No problem.
What else do you want me to prove?
Read the quran, Muslimah - about the part where your husband has the
god-given right to take other wives and have sex with sex-slaves.
Does that make you feel good? Is that the sort of 'equality' you're
thinking of when you think of Islamic equality?
How did those millions of sex slaves feel when Muslims killed their
husbands and took them for slaves? I suppose it's all right since
Muhammad said it's okay for a Muslim to have sex with his sex-slave.
Salaam,
Ahmed
=======================================================
MIA:
I find that Ahmed's view and the manner of discussion has
similarities with those of Muslim fundamentalist-literalist. As it
happens now, in the other mailing list (Indonesian muslimah), two
friends are engaging with almost the same kind of topic, women
inheritance.
The literalist is on the opinion that the law of inheritance cannot
be changed as it is the final word of Allah in the Quran. People
should follow exactly what the text says, no other opinion.
Daughters should inherit 1/2 of sons, period. This is in line with
what Ahmet says. While the progressive one is more or less at the
same opinion with what I wrote previously.
Yet, they both strive to be good Muslims, and believe in Muhammad -
which is obviously the opposite of Ahmed Hussein here.
So....it seems that the work of Islamic text re-interpretation meet
many internal and external obstacles. But the books of Ms. Armstrong
just give us more inspiration and enhance our self-confidence. KEEP
IT GOING GUYS!!
Salam
Mia
==================================================
Ahmed: "Those are the opinions of your prophet. I didn't make this
up. Muhammad did."
I found this pattern in all Ahmed's posting, Muhammad this..Muhammad
that...Is Muhammad in this mailing list also, I wonder?
I met many ex-Muslims or non-Muslims middle easterners. I just don't
recall the one with this kind of antipathy toward the figure of
Muhammad.
Salam
Mia
=================================
Ahmed: "Khaditja was a successful business woman - she was
independent and wealthy"
MIA: Except for mispelling her name, I agree with Ahmed about
Khadija. A noble woman who fell in love with the young Muhammad, her
employee. They both were whom we called 'the hanifs' , good natured
people who seek for the truth and regularly meditated, during the
period of transition, when the old customs were breaking apart.
Khadija was Muhammad's soulmate. For the good 15 years the were
together. Muhammad consulted for his wife's opinion about the first
revelation. The year she died that was devastating for Muhammad.
In the spirit of Valentine's day, I remember Muhammad and Khadijah.
And thanks for reminding me of this, Ahmed.
Happy Valentine, everyone!
Salam
Mia
=========================================
Ahmed Hussain:
Mia,
I happen to know quite a bit more about Islam and Muhammad than you,
Victoria and Karen Armstrong - having studied the subject in depth
in my youth.
I also know Middle East apostates do not speak their apostacy out
loud because Muhammad commanded his followers to kill apostates.
Even today apostates from Islam are killed, tortured, imprisoned or
otherwise punished.
Ever wondered about the holiness and divinity of that? A true
religion does not need to keep adherents by coercion and threats of
violence.
I also note you and Victoria are not following the real Islam but
merely watered-down make-believe "I'll just ignore the verses I
don't like" Islam.
Call me a literalist if you like - but I happen to know that Muslims
are commanded to OBEY the Quran - not disobey it.
So does 4:11 tell Muslims to only give daughters 1/2 as much as
sons? Yes or No. I think it's yes but you obviously can read Arabic
and know differently.
Salaam,
Ahmed
PS: what do you think about Muhammad allowing Muslims to keep
multiple wives and sex slaves? Is that sexual equality to you? I'm
sure it is.
===========================================
Ahmed Hussain:
To Mia,
Valentine's Day in the Muhammad household (timing a bit compressed):
Muhammad and Khatidja and Sauda and Aisha and Hafsa and Juwayriyya
and Safiyya and Umm Salama and Zaynab bint Jansh and Umm Habiba and
Maimuna and Fatimah and Hind and Asma bint Saba and Zaynab bint
Khozayma and Asma bint al-Numan and Rayhana and Mariah bint Sham'un
and Maimuna the slave girl and Zaynab the third and Khawla and Umm
Sharik.
Very romantic in the Muhammad household.
Salaam,
Ahmed
========================================
ROSS:
Ahmed,
You forgot to add the 72 houris to the list.
BTW your arguments are excellent, good show !!
Are you from FFI ? you sound like one. If not we'll be glad if you'd
join us in the forum.
http://www.faithfreedom.org
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum
Regards
=============================================
Mia:
Ross and Ahmed,
Please deh (a slang in Indonesia), I wouldn't think that Muhammad
and his household knew about Valentine's?
Is Muhammad in this mailing list? It's me who remember Muhammad on
the Valentine's day, and extend to you all Happy Valentine...:-)
Salam
Mia (while waiting valentines' wish from my sons...:-((
==========================================
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