I will be on leave until early January 2012. For all web-related queries, please contact the Service Desk (serviced...@ballarat.edu.au, x. 9900).
Kind regards, Danielle >>> wsg 12/22/11 13:31 >>> ********************************************************************* WEB STANDARDS GROUP MAIL LIST DIGEST ********************************************************************* From: Rob Crowther <robe...@boogdesign.com> Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 11:11:07 +0000 Subject: Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites On 20/12/2011 23:44, Chris Price wrote: > One advantage I can see in > opening a new window (on a larger screen at least) is you can dismiss > the page by closing that window rather than feeling you are being taken > somewhere you don't want to go. Is this context sensitive? > Yes it is context sensitive, and the context which is important is the user's. Since the designer can't know in what context (or for what reason) the user is clicking on any given link it is the user who should be deciding whether to open the link in a new window or not. Rob ********************************************************************* From: MJ Ray <m...@phonecoop.coop> Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 11:38:48 +0000 Subject: Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites Janice Schwarz <jan...@geekartist.net> > On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 11:42 AM, MJ Ray <m...@phonecoop.coop> wrote: > > I'm pretty sure there is no such standard preventing mobile phones > > from opening new windows because my aging nokia e90 can do it (since > > one of the early upgrades - move to the link, left shoulder button, > > "Open in New"), Firefox on Android can - but it's been a while since > > I tried an iPhone and I can't remember if that does, but I'd be > > surprised if not.  For all the difficulty of fixing iPhones, there's > > not usually that much glaringly broken on them.  If there was, they'd > > not be as popular as they are. > > > > So I still think it's a bug if a browser can't open a new window and > > wonder what phones you've being using.  Or can someone say what > > mobile phone standard prevents new windows on links? > > I have witnessed this on 2 Droids & 1 iPhone . This has been the > behavior for both versions of the Droid, and the iPhone I used. That's interesting. I wonder if the bug on Androids only affects some manufacturers? I believe the one I tested was from HTC. But no standard preventing user control of windows, then. [...] > When the OS informs you that you are exceeding the maximum number of > *allowed* windows, that seems more of a limitation than a bug. If you > open enough windows on a desktop or laptop, eventually it crashes too. I managed to open 112 windows on my netbook by mistake yesterday (crimes of a dying keyboard). No sign of any crashing, although it took a while to clean up! > There is no unlimited number of windows that can be run on any system, > and a phone has far fewer resources than a desktop or laptop. This is exactly why new windows should be under user control and not website control, so users can choose where to apply the resources! Hope that informs, -- MJ Ray (slef), member of www.software.coop, a for-more-than-profit co-op. http://koha-community.org supporter, web and library systems developer. In My Opinion Only: see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html Available for hire (including development) at http://www.software.coop/ ********************************************************************* From: "coder" <co...@gwelanmor-internet.co.uk> Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 12:16:03 -0000 Subject: Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites In one sense, this argument is fallacious, because whatever the web designer does decides what happens when a user just 'clicks a link'. In my experience, most folk 'out there' don't know about right clicking. To say 'it is the user's choice' is mainly untrue, because he/she doesn't know they've got a choice, and what happens depends upon what the designer has coded. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Crowther" <robe...@boogdesign.com> To: <wsg@webstandardsgroup.org> Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 11:11 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites > On 20/12/2011 23:44, Chris Price wrote: >> One advantage I can see in >> opening a new window (on a larger screen at least) is you can dismiss >> the page by closing that window rather than feeling you are being taken >> somewhere you don't want to go. Is this context sensitive? >> > Yes it is context sensitive, and the context which is important is the > user's. Since the designer can't know in what context (or for what > reason) the user is clicking on any given link it is the user who should > be deciding whether to open the link in a new window or not. > > Rob > > > ******************************************************************* > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org > ******************************************************************* > > ********************************************************************* From: "Patrick H. Lauke" <re...@splintered.co.uk> Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 13:04:18 +0000 Subject: Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites On 21/12/2011 12:16, coder wrote: > In one sense, this argument is fallacious, because whatever the web > designer does decides what happens when a user just 'clicks a link'. In > my experience, most folk 'out there' don't know about right clicking. To > say 'it is the user's choice' is mainly untrue, because he/she doesn't > know they've got a choice, and what happens depends upon what the > designer has coded. A tired argument, but based on the premises that: - most users don't know they can open links explicitly in a new window/tab - the vast majority of links out on t'internet are simply that, straight links, with no extra target="_blank" or similar the fact that a link takes them away to another site is, as a consequence, the expected behaviour that those non-savvy users have. By trying to be extra good ("here, let me open this in a new window for you"), designers may arguably be breaking that expectation and confusing those users, rather than helping them. The argument is slightly different for small pop-ups inside web applications, but that sort of behaviour doesn't work well on mobiles/tablets, if we want to include those in the discussion. TL;DR just use straight links. P -- Patrick H. Lauke ______________________________________________________________ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ ______________________________________________________________ twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke ______________________________________________________________ ********************************************************************* From: David Hucklesby <huckle...@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 09:14:26 -0800 Subject: Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites On 12/21/11 5:04 AM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: > On 21/12/2011 12:16, coder wrote: >> In one sense, this argument is fallacious, because whatever the >> web designer does decides what happens when a user just 'clicks a >> link'. In my experience, most folk 'out there' don't know about >> right clicking. To say 'it is the user's choice' is mainly untrue, >> because he/she doesn't know they've got a choice, and what happens >> depends upon what the designer has coded. > > A tired argument, but based on the premises that: > > - most users don't know they can open links explicitly in a new > window/tab - the vast majority of links out on t'internet are simply > that, straight links, with no extra target="_blank" or similar > > the fact that a link takes them away to another site is, as a > consequence, the expected behaviour that those non-savvy users have. > By trying to be extra good ("here, let me open this in a new window > for you"), designers may arguably be breaking that expectation and > confusing those users, rather than helping them. > [...] Excellent points. If your reason for wanting to open a new window or tab is to be helpful, I suggest telling your visitors about the right-click option right there on your web page. If a link does open a new window, say so. A case could be made for opening PDFs in a new window. But this always breaks the back button, and I doubt there are many who don't know about that browser feature. :) -- Cordially, David ********************************************************************* From: "Patrick H. Lauke" <re...@splintered.co.uk> Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 17:35:00 +0000 Subject: Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites On 21/12/2011 17:14, David Hucklesby wrote: > Excellent points. If your reason for wanting to open a new window or tab > is to be helpful, I suggest telling your visitors about the right-click > option right there on your web page. Ah, but then do you also need explain about tap-and-hold context menus on touchscreens? Or about keyboard shortcut equivalents, for all browser/OS combinations? And for those who do know, does it not sound patronising? It's a difficult balancing act, and I generally take the - maybe hardline - attitude that it's not our job to educate users about how to use their browsers. As long as our site works for them, we shouldn't require them to learn new commands/ways of working (this reminds me of my many futile attempts to get parents/wife/friends/colleagues to "correctly" use features in software...and then being reminded of http://xkcd.com/763/ ) :) P -- Patrick H. Lauke ______________________________________________________________ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ ______________________________________________________________ twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke ______________________________________________________________ ********************************************************************* From: Keith Steinacher <rast...@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 11:43:13 -0600 Subject: Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites Please remove me from the WSG mail-serv. I am no longer in the Website business. Thank you for your support in the past. God Bless, Keith Steinacher Chief Bottle-Washer On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Patrick H. Lauke <re...@splintered.co.uk> wrote: > On 21/12/2011 17:14, David Hucklesby wrote: >> >> Excellent points. If your reason for wanting to open a new window or tab >> is to be helpful, I suggest telling your visitors about the right-click >> option right there on your web page. > > > Ah, but then do you also need explain about tap-and-hold context menus on > touchscreens? Or about keyboard shortcut equivalents, for all browser/OS > combinations? And for those who do know, does it not sound patronising? I t's > a difficult balancing act, and I generally take the - maybe hardline - > attitude that it's not our job to educate users about how to use their > browsers. As long as our site works for them, we shouldn't require them t o > learn new commands/ways of working (this reminds me of my many futile > attempts to get parents/wife/friends/colleagues to "correctly" use featur es > in software...and then being reminded of http://xkcd.com/763/ ) > > :) > > > P > -- > Patrick H. Lauke > > re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively > [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] > > www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk > http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ > > twitter: @patrick h lauke | skype: patrick h lauke > > > > ******************************************************************* > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org > ******************************************************************* > ********************************************************************* From: David Hucklesby <huckle...@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 10:38:53 -0800 Subject: Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites On 12/21/11 9:35 AM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: > On 21/12/2011 17:14, David Hucklesby wrote: >> Excellent points. If your reason for wanting to open a new window or tab >> is to be helpful, I suggest telling your visitors about the right-click >> option right there on your web page. > > Ah, but then do you also need explain about tap-and-hold context menus > on touchscreens? Or about keyboard shortcut equivalents, for all > browser/OS combinations? And for those who do know, does it not sound > patronising? It's a difficult balancing act, and I generally take the - > maybe hardline - attitude that it's not our job to educate users about > how to use their browsers. As long as our site works for them, we > shouldn't require them to learn new commands/ways of working (this > reminds me of my many futile attempts to get > parents/wife/friends/colleagues to "correctly" use features in > software...and then being reminded of http://xkcd.com/763/ ) > > :) > > P LOL. -- Cordially, David ********************************************************************* From: "coder" <co...@gwelanmor-internet.co.uk> Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 18:44:05 -0000 Subject: Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites I have used this CSS : a[rel="external"] { padding-right: 13px; background: url(outofit.gif) no-repeat right top; } With this code: <a href="../sjp.html" rel="external" onclick="window.open(this.href); return false;">THIS</a> is a link to a new window or, for html5: <a href="../sjp.html" rel="external" target-"_blank">THIS</a> is a link to a new window I have also used a variant for pdf, and one for mail links too. No-one has complained (Though Felix might, now . . .) Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Hucklesby" <huckle...@gmail.com> To: <wsg@webstandardsgroup.org> Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 5:14 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites > > Excellent points. If your reason for wanting to open a new window or tab > is to be helpful, I suggest telling your visitors about the right-click > option right there on your web page. If a link does open a new window, > say so. A case could be made for opening PDFs in a new window. But this > always breaks the back button, and I doubt there are many who don't know > about that browser feature. :) > -- > Cordially, > David > > > ******************************************************************* > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org > ******************************************************************* > > ********************************************************************* From: Hassan Schroeder <has...@webtuitive.com> Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 11:44:30 -0800 Subject: Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites On 12/19/11 6:09 PM, Alex Mironov wrote: > Muchof my research suggests that the recommended practice is to > keep people within the same window/tab except in some instances. Most of the responses to this seem to focus on the evils of opening a new *window*. I'm under the impression that Webkit browsers (Chrome, Safari) open a new *tab* by default, which to me seems fine. It's obvious it's a different tab, the original page is right "next" to it, etc. Firefox has an option to set this behavior; anyone know what any of the IEs do? (Heh, I don't even know which IE versions support tabs.) Regardless -- for the vocal objectors, do the same objections apply to opening a new tab? -- Hassan Schroeder ----------------------------- has...@webtuitive.com webtuitive design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com http://about.me/hassanschroeder twitter: @hassan dream. code. ********************************************************************* From: "Patrick H. Lauke" <re...@splintered.co.uk> Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 19:59:05 +0000 Subject: Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites On 21/12/2011 19:44, Hassan Schroeder wrote: > On 12/19/11 6:09 PM, Alex Mironov wrote: > >> Muchof my research suggests that the recommended practice is to > > keep people within the same window/tab except in some instances. > > Most of the responses to this seem to focus on the evils of opening > a new *window*. > > I'm under the impression that Webkit browsers (Chrome, Safari) open > a new *tab* by default, which to me seems fine. It's obvious it's a > different tab, the original page is right "next" to it, etc. > > Firefox has an option to set this behavior; anyone know what any of > the IEs do? (Heh, I don't even know which IE versions support tabs.) > > Regardless -- for the vocal objectors, do the same objections apply > to opening a new tab? My main objection is: let the user decide. If they never knew they could do it, then that's their expected behaviour - that once they activate a link, they're taken to another place. Most of them know about the back button functionality. And if they DO know about opening links in new windows/tabs, and maybe even have their browser configured especially, then they're power users and again let them decide. Nonetheless, make it clear if a link is going to a completely separate site. Don't make it look like any other link within your current site, if possible. Or change the wording a la "for more information, visit the <a href="http://...";>Blahblah company site</a>." - take away the surprise from it. P -- Patrick H. Lauke ______________________________________________________________ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ ______________________________________________________________ twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke ______________________________________________________________ ********************************************************************* From: Al Sparber <aspar...@roadrunner.com> Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 16:02:20 -0500 Subject: A Holiday Treat from PVII Happy Holidays from PVII Save time this holiday season with a free productivity booster from PVII Equal Height CSS Columns Learn how to make your CSS columns automatically adjust to the height of the tallest column in just a few minutes. This free productivity booster includes a tutorial, and a bonus 3-column CSS layout all decked out for the holidays with rounded corners and inset shadows! Instead of using background images, CSS hacks, or CSS that is not yet supported by all browsers, PVII Equal Height Columns uses modern DOM Script to work its magic. Go to Tutorial: http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/css/pvii_columns/index.htm Key Features Supports dynamic content height If the height of any column ever changes, PVII Equal Height Columns will make all necessary adjustmentsinstantly. The script monitors your page every few milliseconds to see if the height of any column needs adjustment. Your column height will always be perfect. If your page includes a panel widget (like an accordion) that causes column height to change when you move from panel to panel, the system will adapt to the new height seamlessly. Deploying PVII Equal Height Columns Deployment is as easy as linking the PVII Equal Height Column script and assigning a class to a set of columns. Nested Groupings You can deploy the PVII Equal Height Columns script on your outer column structure, as well as column structures nested inside. Best Regards, -- Al Sparber - PVII http://www.projectseven.com The Finest Dreamweaver Menus | Galleries | Widgets Since 1998 ********************************************************************* From: Thierry Koblentz <thierry.koble...@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 14:54:55 -0800 Subject: Re: [WSG] A Holiday Treat from PVII Looking at the demo page, it looks like authors would be better using a faux-columns technique which would also remove the need for polling. Or is there a better reason to go the JS route? -- Thierry On Dec 21, 2011, at 1:02 PM, Al Sparber wrote: > Happy Holidays from PVII > > Save time this holiday season with a free productivity booster from PVII > > > Equal Height CSS Columns > > Learn how to make your CSS columns automatically adjust to the height of the tallest column in just a few minutes. This free productivity booster includes a tutorial, and a bonus 3-column CSS layout all decked out for the holidays with rounded corners and inset shadows! > > > Instead of using background images, CSS hacks, or CSS that is not yet supported by all browsers, PVII Equal Height Columns uses modern DOM Script to work its magic. > > > Go to Tutorial: > > http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/css/pvii columns/index.htm > > > Key Features > > Supports dynamic content height > > If the height of any column ever changes, PVII Equal Height Columns will make all necessary adjustments*instantly. The script monitors your page every few milliseconds to see if the height of any column needs adjustment. Your column height will always be perfect. If your page includes a panel widget (like an accordion) that causes column height to change when you move from panel to panel, the system will adapt to the new height seamlessly. > > > Deploying PVII Equal Height Columns > > Deployment is as easy as linking the PVII Equal Height Column script and assigning a class to a set of columns. > > > Nested Groupings > > You can deploy the PVII Equal Height Columns script on your outer column structure, as well as column structures nested inside. > > > Best Regards, > > -- > Al Sparber - PVII > http://www.projectseven.com > The Finest Dreamweaver Menus | Galleries | Widgets > Since 1998 > > > ******************************************************************* > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org > ******************************************************************* > ********************************************************************* From: Al Sparber <aspar...@roadrunner.com> Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 18:09:22 -0500 Subject: Re: [WSG] A Holiday Treat from PVII On 12/21/2011 5:54 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote: > Looking at the demo page, it looks like authors would be better using a > faux-columns technique which would also remove the need for polling. > > Or is there a better reason to go the JS route? It's easier on the designer and allows for quick changes that would otherwise require redoing images. Don't get me wrong, at various times we still use faux columns, negative padding, and a few other means to achieve EHC. This is just one more tool and, like other tools, needs to be fitted to the right project. Happy Holidays to you and yours :-) ********************************************************************* From: Felix Miata <mrma...@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 20:21:03 -0500 Subject: Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites On 2011/12/21 18:44 (GMT) coder composed: > I have used this CSS : > a[rel="external"] { > padding-right: 13px; > background: url(outofit.gif) no-repeat right top; > } > With this code: > <a href="../sjp.html" rel="external" onclick="window.open(this.href); return > false;">THIS</a> is a link to a new window > or, for html5: > <a href="../sjp.html" rel="external" target-"_blank">THIS</a> is a link to > a new window > I have also used a variant for pdf, and one for mail links too. No-one has > complained (Though Felix might, now . . .) You really don't have to worry much about me even looking at anything lacking a clickable link to test. :-) -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ ********************************************************************* From: Felix Miata <mrma...@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 20:31:48 -0500 Subject: Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites On 2011/12/21 12:16 (GMT) coder composed: > In my > experience, most folk 'out there' don't know about right clicking. To say > 'it is the user's choice' is mainly untrue, because he/she doesn't know > they've got a choice The same situation exists here as with text size control. Just because a user doesn't know about minimum font size or zoom options doesn't mean he doesn't have a choice to use it. Just how many gadgets do you have that you know 100% how to use all its features? Dumbing down to the lowest common denominator degrades the user experience for the undumb at least, and probably even for at least some of the dumb. Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. -- Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ ************************************************************** Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ************************************************************** ******************************************************************* List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *******************************************************************
