Bill...still confused...so zen is chan...?..if you wish to experience buddha nature directly you do zen?... no buddhism involved... so why are you desiring to experience buddha nature and then claim it has nothing to do with buddhism?... merle Merle,
Well, that all depends on what you mean by 'zen'. I've defined what I mean by zen (lower-case 'z') many, many times on this forum and elsewhere. A short version of that definition is: a set of teachings and techniques that first lead you to directly experience reality (a.k.a. Buddha Nature); and then helps you integrate that experience into every facet of your daily life. These techniques (zazen, chanting, bowing, koans, etc...)do not have to be associated with Buddhism. If they are then that is Zen Buddhism, and in that case the teachings are encased in the language of Buddhism. This is fact is how I was introduced to zen, via a Japanese form of Zen Buddhism. To sum up, I believe zen is not in any way dependent upon Buddhism, Buddhist teachings, dogmas, doctrine or practices. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: > > > >  >  from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have > buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle >  > Merle, > > Yes. IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism. > > Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, > doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc... All these IMO have nothing > directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on > covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen. In the case of most > other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a > cult. > > This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a > common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case > 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism. > > This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those > that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists. > > ...Bill! > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > >  hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as > > zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle > >  > > Merle, > > > > As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist. > > > > I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I > > practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What > > it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are > > > you?..merle > > >  > > > Merle, > > > > > > Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who > > > doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same > > > language as I do. Someone ELSE! > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not > > > > you?...merle > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as > > > > a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; > > > > and maybe even think "Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this > > > > pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!". > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ have you been in pain > > > > > bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below. > > > > > > > > > > The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha > > > > > Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental > > > > > delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The > > > > > classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ> > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try > > > > > > telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ> > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > > > I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through > > > > > > zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves > > > > > > a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism. > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as > > > > > > > far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to > > > > > > > afford awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha > > > > > > > Nature for not only humans but all beings as we know them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i know this is a little crazy..however here i go..ÃÆ'Æ'Æ> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in > > > > > > > > cyber space.... although we need the body to get the messages > > > > > > > > out there...mm that has me stumped! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > would this body less be liken to the meditation ÃÆ'Æ'Æ> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > state that can be achieved once one has surpassed the breath > > > > > > > > counting saga? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > i have belief that monks can practise a form of meditation > > > > > > > > whereby the can slow the whole body/ mind totally down to an > > > > > > > > almost non existent state > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in all the many previous post there has been much focus on > > > > > > > > slowing the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of > > > > > > > > it's own so to speak? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in > > > > > > > > the body that we do not have any control over what so ever... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own thing > > > > > > > > regardless)... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a whole eco system...one could say a universe lies in the gut > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > my zen question is thus: ÃÆ'Æ'Æ> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > to be totally free ..the human body is it a restraint? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Merle > > > > > > > > www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
