Re: [abcusers] Hi

[Bryancreer]

I can't help feeling that the subject of this thread is no longer entirely
appropriate.

Any way...

Laurie Griffiths said -

>  'we like it this way, and reading this thread will show who "we" are'.

It doesn't matter who "We" are.  By that statement you are making some sort
of claim to authority and implying that you don't need to offer reasons;  
that what "We like" is sufficient.  If you can't understand my objection to
that attitude try and imagine yourself arguing (in the academic sense) a case
you sincerely believe and receiving that response.

>but decided that I had arrogated to myself the right to
>speak for the entire ABC users community

On the contrary.  I felt you were claiming the right to disregard the ABC
community while speaking for a small group who seemed to claim ownership of
ABC without justification.

>The debate centres around the question:
>"should ABC continue to require a key signature to be
>given as a tonic+mode (e.g. Aminor or Cmajor or Ddorian)
>or should it be legal to merely say what sharps and flats
>there are?"
-
-
>Both sides had a case.  

As I recall, a great deal was said about how good the tonic+mode system was
but very little about what was bad about the sharps and flats method except
for Phil Taylor who continues to insist that inclusion of the tonic should be
"compulsory".  As far as I can gather, this is to satisfy the needs of his
software rather than any musical reason.  In case I haven't got the point
over, I strongly believe that the software should be subservient to the needs
of the music.

Perhaps, for newcomers to the list if not for me, you could summarise the
reasons for your dislike of the sharps/flats method which, incidently, was
welcomed by several people when John Chambers introduced it in his version of
abc2ps.  Bruce Olson used a back door version using J: in his software.  I
have also introduced it as an option in ABC2NWC but with a warning that it is
not widely accepted.

>"We" - a different, but overlapping we - are currently trying
>to push the ABC standard forward.  

A committee set up with no reference to the wider ABC community.  I am
relieved that it does not entirely overlap with the other "We" but I remain
sceptical about what it will achieve.  Time will tell.  Do you think you
could provide regular reports of progress, like which issues are you
addressing at the moment?

The tonic+mode versus sharps/flats debate was only an aside to the original
point I was trying to make that developers should exercise caution in
introducing innovations without thinking them through properly first.  It was
an example of how things can go wrong.  I NEVER suggested that it should be
removed from the standard.  Obviously it can't.  We're stuck with it.  That
was the point I was trying to make.

The same point was made strongly by Jack Campin recently with reference to
chord notation.  Don't implement some half-cocked version, get it right from
the beginning.

It would be a waste of time to dig out original quotes; I would only be
accused of quoting people out of context so, in general -

>When Bryan said, "You are not entitled to an opinion if you
>are new to the list." (I cannot think of a more polite or
>constructive way to say this) he was wrong.

This was heavily implied by at least one person.

>When Bryan said, "You are not entitled to an opinion if
>you are not a developer." he was wrong again.

This was stated quite explicitly by several people.

>When Bryan said, "You are not entitled to an opinion unless
>you agree with everything the establishment ... think." he
>was wrong again.

I speak from experience.

I have debated my case robustly but I have never descended into personal
abuse despite being on the receiving end of quite a bit and have wasted a
considerable amount of effort trying to explain my view to people who have
sounded off at me (often at considerable length) while showing little sign of
having actually read what I said.

I would like to discuss developments in the utopian world you described the
other day but, alas, it does not match my experience.

Bryan Creer