Yes.

On Mar 11, 2013, at 9:35 PM, Leif Johansson wrote:

> On 03/11/2013 08:12 PM, Alper Yegin wrote:
>> Here you go:
> So this replaces all of 2.1 (just to be clear) ?
>> 2.1 Retransmission
>> 
>> In EAP, the authenticator is responsible for retransmission. By default
>> EAP assumes that the lower layer (the application in this context) is
>> unreliable. The authenticator can send a packet whenever its
>> retransmission timer triggers. In this mode, applications need to be able to 
>> receive and process 
>> EAP messages at any time during the authentication conversation.
>> 
>> Alternatively, EAP permits a lower layer to set the retransmission timer
>> to infinite. When this happens, the lower layer becomes responsible for
>> reliable delivery of EAP messages. Applications that use a lock-step or
>> client-driven authentication protocol might benefit from this approach.
>> 
>> When retransmission is exclusively handled by the client-side EAP 
>> lower-layer, 
>> an EAP message that gets silently discarded by the EAP method may stall the 
>> EAP lower-layer state machine.  In such a case, applications MUST handle 
>> discarded 
>> EAP messages. The specific way in which discarded messages will be handled
>> depend on the characteristics of the application. Solution options include, 
>> but are not limited to, failing the authentication at the application level, 
>> and requesting an EAP retransmit and waiting for additional EAP input. Both 
>> of 
>> these options require the EAP methods to notify the EAP and/or EAP 
>> lower-layer 
>> when an EAP message is discarded.  
>> 
>> Specifications of how EAP is used for application authentication MUST
>> document how retransmission are handled. If the retransmissions are 
>> exclusively 
>> handled by the client-side EAP lower-layer, then the specifications MUST 
>> also 
>> document how message discards are handled.
>> 
>> Alper
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Mar 9, 2013, at 5:45 PM, Leif Johansson wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 9 mar 2013 kl. 09:09 skrev Alper Yegin <[email protected]>:
>>> 
>>>> Hi Leif,
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This "MUST" cannot be implemented. It's not clear what an implementor 
>>>>>> "must" be doing to comply.
>>>>>> This is merely telling us "there's a problem, you MUST deal with it". 
>>>>>> This reads more like recognition of an issue, rather than a solution.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I' going to weigh in (as an individual) on this point. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> There is (imo) nothing inherently problematic about calling out a problem 
>>>>> that needs to be addressed in another specification, especially when 
>>>>> writing an applicability statement.
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I read the text again, and let me recap it here:
>>>> > Alternatively, EAP permits a lower layer to set the retransmission timer
>>>> > to infinite. When this happens, the lower layer becomes responsible for
>>>> > reliable delivery of EAP messages. Applications that use a lock-step or
>>>> > client-driven authentication protocol might benefit from this approach.
>>>> > 
>>>> > In addition to retransmission behavior applications need to deal with
>>>> > discarded EAP messages. For example, whenever some EAP methods receive  
>>>> > erroneous
>>>> > input, these methods discard the input rather than generating an error
>>>> > response. If the erroneous input was generated by an attacker,
>>>> > legitimate input can sometimes be received after the erroneous
>>>> > input. Applications MUST handle discarded EAP messages,
>>>> > although the specific way in which discarded messages will be handled
>>>> > depend on the characteristics of the application. Options include
>>>> > failing the authentication at the application level, requesting an EAP 
>>>> > retransmit and waiting for additional EAP input.  
>>>> 
>>>> This text implies there is a problem, but it does not define what the 
>>>> problem is.
>>>> Or under what circumstances that problem arises.
>>>> 
>>>> The issue is very specific to the case where the EAP lower layer is in 
>>>> charge of rexmits, and the rexmits are solely client-side driven.
>>>> It does not apply to any other case. 
>>>> And if the EAP stack (the combination of EAP method, EAP layer, and EAP 
>>>> lower layer) does not handle this case in a special way, then the state 
>>>> machines may stall.
>>>> 
>>>> None of that can be understood from the above text at all.
>>>> 
>>>> Once the readers understand the issue, then they can proceed to "dealing 
>>>> with it". 
>>>> 
>>>> As for the suggested solutions, failing the authentication reduces the 
>>>> resiliency of EAP solutions. 
>>>> The other option requires an API between EAP method and EAP lower-layer. 
>>>> 
>>>> OK, maybe we don't care about the analysis of the solutions, but we do 
>>>> care about defining what the problem is.
>>>> 
>>>> And also, this issue is not really an "applicability statement" matter. 
>>>> This is a "requirement on EAP lower layer (which is based on strictly 
>>>> client-driven rexmits)" matter, IMHO. 
>>>> 
>>>> (I understand some people might want to get done with this, but if we 
>>>> don't do it properly I'm afraid it'd open more problems than it solves for 
>>>> people down the road).
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Alper
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> Why don't you propose text!
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>>      Cheers Leif
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> 
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