Jamie, Alex,
There is far too much resistance to concatenating the description with the error message. It will never carry with the working group. I am sorry. Right now we are holding up ARIA in HTML in ARIA.
Can we agree:
1. For the Firefox mapping of the form element, and ARIA 1.1 form role, IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK is exposed with xml-roles="form"
2. IA2_ROLE_FORM will not be deprecated for backward compatibility
3. We expose IA2_RELATION_DETAILS and IA2_RELATIONSHIP_ERROR_MESSAGE - It that you both agreed on separate relationships and these were the names Alex suggested.
Beyond that I need an answer on the reverse relationship that Joanie requested. It you can't agree I will leave them out of the IA2 spec. I do believe that Joanie might implement the reverse relationship for her platform but I have not asked. Joanie?
Alex, would you please send me an updated IDL for IA2?
Regards,
Rich
Rich Schwerdtfeger
----- Original message -----
From: Rich Schwerdtfeger <[email protected]>
Sent by: [email protected]
To: Alexander Surkov <[email protected]>
Cc: Joseph Scheuhammer <[email protected]>, Stefan Schnabel <[email protected]>, Steven Faulkner <[email protected]>, IA2 List <[email protected]>, ARIA Working Group <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2 Role Landmark
Date: Sun, Aug 28, 2016 7:20 AM
I would also argue that, today, navigating a web page should be by regional landmarks first. They create a table of contents for the page and we advise all IBM developers to ensure all content is contained within a landmark. This way content is not orphaned. To that end a form should be treated as a landmark and should appear in the table of contents used for navigation by ATVs.We are way beyond one off landmarks (just a form) and starting with heading navigation today.RichRich Schwerdtfeger
On Aug 25, 2016, at 10:51 AM, Rich Schwerdtfeger <[email protected]> wrote:Well it is used by the most pervasive apps on the planet using IA2 already. Chrome, FF, and eclipse-based apps.
Sent from my iPhoneI definitely agree that IA2 needs a flexible mechanism to expose roles, I'm just not sure it should be xml-roles object attribute.On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 11:15 AM, Rich Schwerdtfeger <[email protected]> wrote:Alex, those object attributes should have been included in IA2 a long time ago. I in no way see these as a hack. Eclipse uses them too.
Sent from my iPhoneThis is true, however xml-roles is not standard attribute in IA2, it's rather a browser specific hack to expose the semantics, that otherwise was missed. So if the API provides a way to expose an element semantics more fully, then I'd say it's the way to go.
Having said that, I'm also concerned about backward-compatibility issue.On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 10:37 AM, Joanmarie Diggs <[email protected]> wrote:Sorry for being spammy, but with respect to the loss of semantics: The
type of landmark is still being exposed via object attribute. So I'll
still know if an ATK_ROLE_LANDMARK is a form, or navigation, or ....
On 08/25/2016 10:24 AM, Joanmarie Diggs wrote:
> Hi Alex, all.
>
> I don't recall saying "kill the form role" in ATK. We have no plans to
> deprecate ATK_ROLE_FORM. Instead, I believe I said something along the
> lines of the following:
>
> Q: Should HTML's form element be treated like a landmark for the
> purposes of navigation?
>
> If Yes: Map it to ATK_ROLE_LANDMARK
> If No: Continue mapping it to ATK_ROLE_FORM
>
> --joanie
>
> On 08/25/2016 10:08 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
>> I don't think Jamie argues that FORM is not a landmark. The point is
>> that FORM is a form and also a landmark. IA2 provides a special FORM
>> role, which is used both for ARIA and HTML currently, and adopted by
>> browsers and screen readers.
>>
>> If we use weaker role for forms, then we loose semantics as Jamie
>> pointed out, and we make a not backward compatible change. All JAWS and
>> other commercial screen reader users will have to buy a new screen
>> reader version.
>>
>> ATK gained this role, because it doesn't have a mechanism to fetch all
>> landmarks on a page other than query it by role. And thus they are ok to
>> sacrifice ATK form role for performance reasons I think. Note, ATK world
>> doesn't have so acute problem of backward compatibility as IA2 has, so
>> they have a larger room for changes. IA2 landmark role is a ATK toll to
>> keep IA2 compatible with, this is a primary reason, if I do understand
>> that right. However I'm not confident too that we should take ATK path
>> and kill a form role too.
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 3:34 AM, Schnabel, Stefan
>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]m >> wrote:
>>
>> Hi James,____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> currently Jaws treats forms like regions as landmarks, i.e. showing
>> them in its landmarks dialog, too. They do this for reason, page
>> structure is very clearly revealed by this. I consider this as a
>> strong feature and do not like this changed.____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> The logic behind that is the pragmatic thinking that forms are
>> landmark-like, too. And a “navigation” landmark can contain fairly
>> complex content, too, not just a list of links.____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> Best Regards____
>>
>> Stefan____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> *From:*James Teh [mailto:[email protected]
>> <mailto:[email protected]>]
>> *Sent:* Donnerstag, 25. August 2016 00:33
>> *To:* Rich Schwerdtfeger <[email protected]
>> <mailto:[email protected]>>
>> *Cc:* Alexander Surkov <[email protected]
>> <mailto:surkov.alexander@gmail.com >>; Joseph Scheuhammer
>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>; Joanmarie Diggs
>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>; IA2 List
>> <[email protected]x-foundation.org
>> <mailto:Accessibility-ia2@lists.linux-foundation.org >>; ARIA Working
>> Group <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>; Steven
>> Faulkner <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]om >>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2 Role Landmark____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> Hi Rich,____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> I understand the reason for the use of the landmark role for
>> role="form". However, I disagree with the HTML form element being
>> mapped to the landmark role because semantics are lost. The fact
>> that something is a form has more semantic value than just being a
>> landmark. Still, if the spec already requires this, I guess we have
>> little choice but to comply at this stage.____
>>
>>
>> Jamie____
>>
>> On 25/08/2016 3:08 AM, Rich Schwerdtfeger wrote:____
>>
>> Jamie, ____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> The point is we want ALL the landmarks to be treated the same
>> way for ATVs. So, first we determine that it is a landmark. Then
>> we go to xml-roles to determine the type of landmark. ____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> Otherwise, we need a special case for a form. That is what we
>> are trying to avoid. For these reasons ATK/ATSPI created a
>> landmark role first. ____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> The HTML the form element now uses the ARIA mappings for the
>> form role. See "Use WAI-ARIA mapping” under the form element.
>> This is for all platforms.____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html
>> <https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html >____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> We do understand that non-browser applications may still use the
>> older Form role mapping as would older browser versions. It is
>> for these reasons that our definition of deprecation is that it
>> has not gone a way but rather it is going to this new preferred
>> mapping. ____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> Best,____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> Rich____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> Rich Schwerdtfeger____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> On Aug 23, 2016, at 7:35 PM, James Teh <[email protected]
>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> If you believe that role="form" has no semantic value other
>> than being a landmark, then let's go ahead and map it to
>> IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK. On the other hand, the HTML form tag
>> *does* have semantic value other than being a landmark, so
>> I'd argue it should be IA2_ROLE_FORM.____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> On 24/08/2016 5:22 AM, Rich Schwerdtfeger wrote:____
>>
>> We are not asking that IA2_ROLE_FORM be deprecated
>> altogether. Even with ARIA we have some attributes that
>> re deprecated but that is meant so that there will be a
>> replacement solution. An example is the drag and drop
>> aria properties. For ARIA browser conformance testing to
>> exit Candidate Recommendation we will be testing for
>> IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK on form roles. ____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> Rich Schwerdtfeger____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> On Aug 18, 2016, at 9:56 PM, James Teh
>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
>> wrote:____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> On 11/08/2016 2:58 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
>>
>> ____
>>
>> 1) adding IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK and____
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>>
>> ____
>>
>> 2) deprecating IA2_ROLE_FORM?____
>>
>> I'd argue that there is more semantic value in a
>> "form" than just the fact that it is a landmark.
>> This probably doesn't apply to ARIA (at least for
>> now), since role="form" is defined as only a
>> landmark. However, I'd argue it does apply to the
>> HTML form tag. So, I'm fine t not use IA2_ROLE_FORM
>> for ARIA role="form", but I'm dubious about
>> deprecating it altogether, including for the HTML
>> form tag.
>> Jamie
>>
>> --
>> James Teh
>> Executive Director, NV Access Limited
>> Ph +61 7 3149 3306 <tel:%2B61%207%203149%203306>
>> www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>
>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>> <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess >
>> Twitter: @NVAccess
>> SIP: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>>
>>
>> ____
>>
>> -- ____
>>
>> James Teh____
>>
>> Executive Director, NV Access Limited____
>>
>> Ph +61 7 3149 3306 <tel:%2B61%207%203149%203306>____
>>
>> www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>____
>>
>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>> <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess >____
>>
>> Twitter: @NVAccess____
>>
>> SIP: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>>
>>
>> ____
>>
>> -- ____
>>
>> James Teh____
>>
>> Executive Director, NV Access Limited____
>>
>> Ph +61 7 3149 3306 <tel:%2B61%207%203149%203306>____
>>
>> www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org>____
>>
>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess >____
>>
>> Twitter: @NVAccess____
>>
>> SIP: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>____
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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