Hello, again. Your suggestion to delete the LO user data makes a great deal of sense. I am going to try this today. I'd also like to comment on Kevin's comments regarding the accessibility issues we've been seeing. There's no doubt that we all agree that many sighted users wouldn't go through the steps we're being asked to go through in order for them to see the program on their monitor. However, a few things do need to be said. First, I think we can also agree that the LO developers didn't deliberately break accessibility to make the lives of blind users miserable. Open source developers understand the need for universal accessibility and are likely as passionate at seeing that those needs are met as we are passionate about using these products. Secondly, let's also remember that these developers are likely volunteers. They may have other jobs, family obligations and other things going on in their lives and I'm sure they're pouring more blood, sweat and tears over this code than many of us perhaps might realize. If the developers broke accessibility and seemed to not care whether the issues got resolved or not would be a rational excuse for blind computer users to just give up on this product and go to something else. However, this doesn't seem to be the case to me. Yes, there are some accessibility issues and this is admittedly not convenient or desirable and these problems can make the program unusable for us. However, it seems clear to me judging by what I see on this list that some developers are interested in what's broken and are trying to find ways of fixing it. This became aparent when I saw the checkbox for turning on a.t. support during the installation process. Troubleshooting can be tiresome when we're asked to uninstall a series of components and reinstall them all over again. However, I think we should be willing to at least try these suggestions if it means that the feedback which results from doing so can be used by developers to fix bugs in future releases.
David Goldfield Computer Technology Instructor 919 Walnut Street 4th Floor Philadelphia, PA 19107 215-627-0600 ext 3277 FAX: 215-922-0692 mailto:[email protected] http://www.asb.org Serving Philadelphia's and the nation's blind and visually impaired population since 1874. -----Original Message----- From: David Goldfield [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 11:41 AM To: V Stuart Foote Cc: [email protected] Subject: RE: [libreoffice-accessibility] Latest Libo Won't Play Nice with myJRE Hello, Stuart. The last time I worked with Symphony I definitely noticed that accessibility was much better. I continued to stick with LO because Symphony does not have a built-in function in the File menu to send a document as an email attachment and Writer handles this function quite nicely. While Symphony has a plug-in to accomplish this task I found that installing plug-ins for Symphony via the keyboard was next to impossible. I'm glad, however, that LO developers are at least discussing how to best handle these accessibility shortcomings. I thank you for your explanations, patience and the time you are taking to explain as well as to verify these issues. David Goldfield Computer Technology Instructor 919 Walnut Street 4th Floor Philadelphia, PA 19107 215-627-0600 ext 3277 FAX: 215-922-0692 mailto:[email protected] http://www.asb.org Serving Philadelphia's and the nation's blind and visually impaired population since 1874. -----Original Message----- From: V Stuart Foote [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 11:25 AM To: David Goldfield; [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: RE: [libreoffice-accessibility] Latest Libo Won't Play Nice with myJRE David, I spent yesterday working through some of the permutations. I resolved a couple of my own questions. First, that Python based NVDA functions independent of the Java Runtime Environment - Java Access Bridge. NVDA does require the JRE and Java Access Bridge to properly control programs that are implemented with the Java Access Bridge API, unfortunately that includes LibreOffice. But NVDA will remain functional with the JRE & JAB removed. NVDA only needs to be momentarily shut down when uninstalling the JAB & JRE and can be restarted as the uninstall completes. =-=-= Another issue, per-user LibreOffice profile from past installation attempts or prior versions must be removed. Uninstallation of LibreOffice leaves the per-user configuration files intact. This is intentional from the LibreOffice developers perspective--but it adversely affects installation or re-installation of LibreOffice with accessibility tools and needs to be rebuilt cleanly. The per-user configuration is located at: C:\Users\<yourusername>\AppData\Roaming\LibreOffice Simply delete the LibreOffice folder and subfolders. And proceed with removal and reinstallation of the JRE, enabling the JAB, and lastly installing LibreOffice with AT enabled. =-=-= Finally, I am curious as to how incomplete the Flat Review LibreOffice JAB based Assistive Technology tools are compared to the Windows IAccessible2 based tools, or Linux AT-SPI based, or even the Apple Accessibility API based renderings. Since IBM continues to develop and distribute the Lotus Symphony suite, current release is 3.0.1 and is free to download and use. http://symphony.lotus.com/software/lotus/symphony/home.nsf/home/ <http://symphony.lotus.com/software/lotus/symphony/home.nsf/home/> I grabbed a set of Windows installers (32-bit), and the FixPack1 for 3.0.1 from http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/downloads/ls/symphony/ <http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/downloads/ls/symphony/> In a side by side comparison using NVDA and the same .odt document -- the IAccessible2 based Symphony clearly accessed more of the MSAA-IAccessible roles than did the Java Access Bridge based LibreOffice. Cursor navigation, and object based mode functioned--as did reporting of font changes, style and header levels and voicing of program annotations like spelling errors. Clearly under NVDA Symphony Document is more useable as an editor. Similar results in the Spreadsheet compared to Calc. =-=-= I'm going to press on and do the same comparison between a Linux Orca session of LibreOffice's AT-SPI based interface, and Symphony (in both Windows and Linux versions)--but suspect it will simply confirm there are serious shortcomings to the Java Access Bridge -- UNO a11y role mappings in LibreOffice on the Windows side. I can't say if this has been the state since inception, or is a recent change but will have a little better feel of what roles are working in Linux with ATK side versus in Windows with JAB and may then be able to rationally present the case of regression or needed enhancement to the developers. There is an open metabug on the Linux AT-SPI ATK AT-SPI2 side for Orca , maybe we need something similar on the Windows JAB side.( https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_activity.cgi?id=36549 ) =-=-= In the interim, until the Java Access Bridge based Windows functions are corrected--or until LibreOffice moves fully to and UNO a11y role - IAccessible2 role mapping under the IBM Symphony contribution--you may want to look at using the free IBM Symphony 3.0.1--of course that leaves you without Draw, Base or an Equation editor. Stuart p.s. CC'd to the Dev list--looking to contact whomever has the best grasp of the JRE Java Access Bridge based Assistive Technologies used on the Windows side mappings of the UNO a11y roles. Difficult to tell what is not working as intended, versus what has never been implemented, versus issues with the JRE and Java Access Bridge. What I know for sure is that other than the missing enhancements of IAccessible2, LibreOffice for Windows is not meeting its AT functional goals. ________________________________ From: David Goldfield [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tue 10/9/2012 7:44 AM To: V Stuart Foote Subject: RE: [libreoffice-accessibility] Latest Libo Won't Play Nice with myJRE Hello. I uninstalled the components in the order in which you suggested. Using another installed screen reader I reinstalled all software in the order suggested and ensured that the a.t. support checkbox was checked when installing Libreoffice 3.6. I also enabled JAB via the control panel under accessibility settings but I still find that I have no access with LO 3.6 and NVDA 2012.2.1. David David Goldfield Computer Technology Instructor 919 Walnut Street 4th Floor Philadelphia, PA 19107 215-627-0600 ext 3277 FAX: 215-922-0692 mailto:[email protected] http://www.asb.org <http://www.asb.org/> Serving Philadelphia's and the nation's blind and visually impaired population since 1874. -----Original Message----- From: V Stuart Foote [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2012 9:05 PM To: Kevin Cussick; [email protected] Subject: RE: [libreoffice-accessibility] Latest Libo Won't Play Nice with my JRE Kevin, Golly. I hate to keep harping on this. And I know it must seem like we are asking you to jump through hoops. But as Tom notes the effort is to clear it everything off and start clean from a known state. In your latest attempt you've ended up non-functional. To have a correct outcome, the install order IS important. LibreOffice gets install LAST. Remove in this order: 1. LibreOffice 2. NVDA 3. Java Access Bridge 4. Java Runtime Environment Install in this order 1. Java Runtime Environment 2. Java Access Bridge 3. NVDA 4. LibreOffice But note this: with JRE 1.7u7, the Java Access Bridge v2.0.3 is installed automatically and just needs to be enabled with a "jabswitch.exe /enable" command. Only for JRE 1.6 do you still need to use the JWin utility to install and configure Java Access Bridge v2.0.2. In other words you should no longer use the JWin program with JRE 1.7 greater than update 6. Rather, simply enable the built in Java Access Bridge and then install NVDA and finally LibreOffice. Also, during LibreOffice 3.6 installation, on the last page of Installation Wizard configuration "Ready to Install the Program" there will be two check boxes 1) "Create a start link on desktop", and 2) "Support assistive technology tools" Check that box and then select the Install button. The assistive technology checkbox is off by default--and must be checked to enable assistive technology in LibreOffice without navigating the Tools -> Options -> Accessibility and Tools -> Options Java menus. Without the Accessibility "Support assistive technology tools" checked, NVDA will read the outside frame elements of LibreOffice-but will not be able to read or navigate text within the components. Stuart -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [email protected] Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [email protected] Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
