>[3] Obviously I have encountered YASET (Yet Another Stupid Exchange Thing) and am irked with the standard MS Exch Response.
Wow Joe - musta been some B-YASET (Big YASET) ;op > One thing I find interesting is, who are these MANY of companies that are currently running 64 bit and getting great benefits out of it? We are running several here, though I think we are running 32 bit OS on most of them for now. All the desktops we get now are Intel EM64T. I have a 3.4 GHz P4 Dell OptiPlex GX280 with 1GB RAM running XP32 as my desktop, with Virtual PC, and loading XP on that in a VM is noticeably slower than on a dedicated system, as I have come to expect and accept somewhat. But I also have a GX620, same specs but with an EM64T and running XP64. I tried to install several things so far that did not like x64, like MS VPC or VS2005, but VMWare has a beta workstation out that runs on x64. Loading XP on a VM on that baby goes as fast as it does on the 620 by itself, or on a 280, which amazed me. Is it VMWare vs VPC, or XP64 vs XP32, or 32bit P4 vs EM64T? I don't know, but when I'm loading the VM, I don't much care :) I have experienced the slow-moving, certified hardware and appropriated/allocated funds issues with hardware so I can understand that. I also know, IME anyway, that those companies/organizations tend to move slowly on upgrades as well. Getting the Navy Europe HQ to adopt XP and AD over NT4 was a pair of battles that were not easily won. And I never did see them upgrade Exchange off 5.5 while I was there. If companies don't see a good reason to go to E12, IMHO lack of x32 support is not going to be the main reason for delay. It will be licensing, migration costs, etc. I think some of the bigger companies, though this is just a guess, would opt for 64bit E12 even if it was not mandatory, to get the memory support. Even for medium Exchange implementations we used to see it grab all the memory we could throw at it, so with the 64 bit memory model I think companies would jump at the opportunity to feed Exchange the RAM it's always wanted. My experience has been mid-sized companies though, so my guess is based on that. I do believe that hardware improvements continue to accelerate and eventually the months and years that companies like to take until the non-technical people feel comfortable with a certification of it are going to fall prey to the rate of change. If 64bit is necessary to provide the kind of collaboration that will give adopters a competitive advantage, then I think we'll see that happen. There will always be companies who believe the tried and true ways are best, and then there are other companies who spend billions of dollars on a new high tech Hyundai manufacturing plant that will help them gain a competitive edge. I'm not sure that's fair to say E12 will offer any kind of edge like that, but IMHO the model will eventually have to speed up for big stoic companies to stay competitive and survive. That's really nothing new though, it's been ongoing for a long time now. Rich -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of joe Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 5:06 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Microsofts Exchange Server 12 64 bit announcement Me personally? I bought the parts and built an AMD X64 Media Center PC this last spring or so (though MCE only runs 32 bit[1]). But then, I seem to be on the bleeding edge for a lot of stuff compared to most every single company I have dealt with. I am looking at building another X64 machine to replace my current desktop[2] and possibly buying a laptop that is x64. The interesting thing I am finding is in the area of memory for machines you can make. The big thing about 64 bit is memory access, yet I am having trouble finding Mobos that will handle large chunks of memory, heck I am seeing some limited to 2-3GB which is silly for a 64 bit machine.... Overall though, I am finding it harder and harder to devote any energy to telling Exchange where they are making mistakes. I am tired of arguing with them and starting to not care enough to continue. If I hear one more time that they are doing some moronic thing "by design" I think I am just going to assume that means they are idiots and truly are making dumb choices on purpose and give up. I know that isn't the case but if that is the excuse to not admit to a bug, who am I to argue?[3] As for the 64 bit, I see two main issues which are different at the different levels 1. Enterprise Level - this is not a no-brainer. Moving OSes or hardware platforms is not cheap for a large company, the cost of recertification of everything for the platform can cost literally hundreds of thousands if not millions and take months or years. One company I know of has a group dedicated to working on the new platforms and stuff to integrate and certify it for use 1,2,3 years down the road and they are saying no to 64 bit. I don't expect that to change until the cost to recertify is less than the cost of buying new 32 bit hardware. They won't just buy 64 bit and start running 32 bit OS and apps on it because the same recertification issues are there. 2. Small companies. Many don't lease, they buy, they want hardware to last a long long long time. They certainly don't have hardware recycle programs nor any thought of staff to do such a thing. One thing I find interesting is, who are these MANY of companies that are currently running 64 bit and getting great benefits out of it? I can't think of any companies I have dealt with who don't produce software/hardware that are running 64 bit other than as a test. The others that are running production are doing it because they have to for their product line testing. I am all for 64 bit, it will happen, it is good. Just don't see the benefit of forcing people. Oh one point that was brought up in another forum... How about virtualization. How many 64 bit virtualization environments out there? How long before MS has something in place? My money is with vmware in that space, expect they will beat MS to the table by a year. Recall virtualization isn't just about reducing the number of machines, there is the whole idea of abstraction as well which I personally think is a bigger benefit. Nice to be not tied down to a specific physical machine to run something. As for the Zimbra, interesting, I will check it out. Good to see it isn't GNU. Too bad they only have Red Hat based dists. As for you sometimes get what you paid for, quite true. But there are also examples of getting far more than what you paid for and examples of getting something better from something you got free than what you paid someone else for. I expect most folks feel the joeware tools they have used have had some "real" value to them with no cost to aquire. Personally I think it would be interesting if someone put together a drop-in non-MS near black box SBS replacement that could run 32 or 64 bit. It could be driven entirely by wizards and web forms. How many of the bells and whistles are needed in small business world for real versus just "cool things" that MS also does? What do they need? Email Server, Web Server, Database server, client patching repository / installation point? Anything that can't be done with standalone apps on a Windows box or on some other OS? joe [1] And I have been chastised for buying 64 bit and running 32 bit on it as it being a stupid buy. How many business people will want to do the same when they are watched for every penny they spend? [2] fastmofo isn't as fast relatively speaking... [3] Obviously I have encountered YASET (Yet Another Stupid Exchange Thing) and am irked with the standard MS Exch Response. -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Al Mulnick Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 12:08 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Microsofts Exchange Server 12 64 bit announcement How long before you expect to upgrade? And how does that compare with the hardware lifecycle? If you find a way to future proof anything in this business, please let the rest of us know. :) As for Joe's question: are there other packages available? Yep. But as with anything it depends on what you want to accomplish and your tolerance for changes. One option might be the open source version of http://www.zimbra.com/products/index.html which implements what looks to be a popular new path - AJAX. There are other open source projects out there as well, but sometimes you really do get what you pay for. -ajm >From: "Brian Desmond" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: [email protected] >To: <[email protected]> >Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Microsofts Exchange Server 12 64 bit >announcement >Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 11:00:26 -0500 > >Neither do I. We just put in a 400K dollar Exchange 2003 environment >like >18 >months ago. I don't think the client is going to be thrilled to hear >that was all a waste as it will only run one version of Exchange. > > > >Thanks, >Brian Desmond > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >c - 312.731.3132 > > > > > > _____ > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of joe >Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 10:03 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Microsofts Exchange Server 12 64 bit >announcement > > > >Wow. I don't recall Muglia making that statement at the summit, I think >he would have been beaten up pretty bad.... > > > > > >"Muglia made several product announcements during his keynote address. > > > >As part of its commitment to 64-bit computing, Microsoft has been >delivering products that are optimized for 64-bit, including the newly >released SQL ServerT 2005, Visual StudioR 2005 and Virtual Server 2005 >R2. To help customers take full advantage of the power of 64-bit >computing, products including MicrosoftR Exchange Server "12," Windows >Compute Cluster Server 2003, Windows ServerT "Longhorn" Small Business >Server, and Microsoft's infrastructure solution for midsize businesses, >code-named "Centro," will be exclusively 64-bit and optimized for x64 >hardware. In a future update release to Microsoft's upcoming Windows >Server "Longhorn" operating system, code-named Windows Server >"Longhorn" R2, customers will see the complete transition to >64-bit-only hardware, while still benefiting from 32-bit and 64-bit >application compatibility. For the highest-scale application and >database workloads, Windows Server on 64-bit Itanium-based systems will >continue to be the premier choice for customers for years to come." > > > >The LH SBS package is pretty funny too... Imagine going into all of >those small companies and telling them they don't have a choice but to >buy a new server when they want to get the new security enhancements. > > > >I hope MS decides to support K3 and Exchange K3 for some time. Though I >am already seeing a huge reduced emphasis and making K3 work right now. > > > >Any good non-GNU message/collaboration apps out there? Something with >maybe a BSD license? > > > > joe > > > > > > _____ > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Desmond >Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 9:03 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Microsofts Exchange Server 12 64 bit >announcement > >Where'd you find that? > > > >Thanks, >Brian Desmond > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >c - 312.731.3132 > > > > > > _____ > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Martin Tuip >Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 3:33 AM >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; >[email protected] >Subject: [ActiveDir] Microsofts Exchange Server 12 64 bit announcement > > > >This just in: > >"As some of you are attending IT Forum in Barcelona, I want to make >sure those of you who are not get the latest updates. At IT Forum, >Microsoft will announce broad support for 64 bit across many of its >product lines. As part of that announcement we will be announcing that >Exchange 12 will be 64 bit only. This is a significant decision for us >and it is one that we did not make lightly. Many of you and your >customers may have questions about why Exchange 12 will be 64 bit only >and the mail below provides some background on the factors that lead to >this decision and also the benefits from 64 bit that we are seeing in >our early dog food & TAP deployments." > > > >Martin Tuip > >MVP Exchange > List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/ List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/ -------APPLEBEE'S INTERNATIONAL, INC. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE------- PRIVILEGED / CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION may be contained in this message or any attachments. 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