Sorry, Kuminda, it doesn't have to be as complicated as you say.

First, you can get a good host account for about $45.00/month that includes
SQL, and secure transactions (using the web host's certificate).  That's
$540/year.  I assume that the customer already has a merchant account, and
would need to talk to her (his?) bank about adding Internet transactions.
If the internet host account has monthly costs that are too high, someone
like WorldPay is an option (though they are high - you can get a better
deal).  Your minimum estimate of $5000 per year is way out of line.

Building the site in ASP, insuring complete transactions is easily handled.

I'm not going to go over this point by point.  Each of the points you make
does need to be considered, but they are all easily handled.  Put them all
together and you have a complex programming job, but a do-able one.  I
believe this is intended to be a learn-as-you-go website in a number of
ways.  That's fine.  The request was to help him get started, and my answer
was geared to that request.

As you say., and arts and crafts site doesn't need to be too complicated.
If scalability becomes an issue, then the customer will be able to afford a
more robust solution.

You are right in that the business end needs to be addressed.

Jim, don't get discouraged.  You can do this.  A book was suggested, reading
it or something like it would be valuable to insure that all the business
considerations are considered.  These considerations should be resolved
before you write a single line of code.  So get thee to a bookstore!  Then
break the job down into pieces, and work on each piece (keeping the overall
picture in mind).  If the client can't pay much, then you'll have to balance
what the cost should be with what you're getting out of it in terms of
learning and experience.

Off to finish my own current ecommerce project!

Good Luck
Diane



-----Original Message-----
From: Kuminda Chandimith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 4:53 AM
To: ActiveServerPages
Subject: RE: ECommerce Web site - Getting started advice



As Tore Would have said, "One of my Pet Peeves". And this post has very
little to do with ASP and generally talking about implementing an e-commerce
business.

I will forget that you are a programmer who want to do some programming :).
Let me give you some basics details.

The first thing you have to look in to is that how much that your customer
is willing to or could pay, and what is his/her requirements in broader
perspective. If the customer has no money to pay, I would not even consider
writing a single source code. Not just because that I am not getting Paid,
but also considering that to maintain an e-commerce site there is
substantial cost.  If customer cannot afforded the same the whole exercise
will be a white elephant. (Believe me I have seen this happening)

If you are considering a self programmed (custom developed) web site
hosting.  with fully functional credit card Payment systems etc, . You would
be looking at minimum 5,000 USD a year hosting and  related cost. If you are
planning to have your own SSL certificates etc, this cost would go much
higher.

When consider this in the business perspective I would consider something
like following.

Since your commodity is Arts and Crafts, Consider developing a simple good
looking HTML based web site. Find one of those ready to use online shopping
cart. (I've used "Click and Build" from WorldPay UK and that has a lot of
features that You could use  for your customer, but there may be better ones
out there.) Then place the web site in and see how it Perform for few
months.

But above is just what my opinion.  Should you decide that you need to build
a custom solution for the customer you may have to consider following.

1. Hosting : where you want to host the solution, In-house or at a shared
hosting location.

2. Security: How you going to secure the transactions: In-terms of
        a. Communications : SSL, Server certifications etc,
        b. Database : You need to have A secure database. Some countries
forbid you to store Credit Card, Customer information in your location
unless proper security is assured.
        C. Application : Use of methodologies that would implement proper
transactions, (no halfway transactions etc,)

3. Site Management: How the merchant could manage the product catalogues,
Ordering details etc,.

4. Application scalability and architecture.

5. Credit card Payments and Merchant Accounts: The customer may need to have
merchant account and connectivity to a payment gateway. In some countries
you will not have proper Payment gateways, which would make you to have
merchant account in a different country. and there is lot formalities
involved in getting a merchant account from  2nd country. if so you may
decide to go ahead with a virtual merchant Accounts Like PayPal or worldpay.


6. Credit card fraud protection. How your CC gateway provider protect you
from fraud. What are the facilities available for you to assess risk of each
credit card transaction. (let me add some from my experience: We started an
e-commerce site about 3 years a go and we ware so overjoyed when we received
our first few orders, which included few Lap-tops. We ware in haste to
fulfil the Order and managed to deliver the products with in the Promised
delivery days. After 3 months we received notice for credit card disputes
from the Bank and we lost about 3 Laptops due to fraudulent transactions.
We ware not given instructions from our payment gateway provider how to
evaluate risks for credit card transaction. After few such transactions the
management made a decision that we have to remove the Credit card payment
facility from our web site. )

The DB Structure and implementation of Shopping cart etc, will be the least
important thing when you consider the Above aspects.  the post from Diane
describes a typical Shopping site implementation. Of-course you may need to
customise According to your needs. I have to mention there are issues in the
Payment aspects specially regarding storing the credit Card numbers in your
Database.

Also remember there is  few more concepts that in implementing shopping
sites. Things such as

1. SKU's Or Stock Keeping Units. (This is when you have the same commodity
in different configurations EX. Same shirt may be available in different
colours.)

2. Shipping Cost calculations.

3. Taxation

4. Promotions managements (Buy one get one free Or buy One Of X and Get Y
for xx.xx Price ) etc,

So remember the Programming part of an e-commerce site is plays a very small
role in implementing a e-commerce business. There is much larger and
Business level needs that you need to consider.


HTH

cheers


Kuminda Chandimith
Sr. Technical Consultant
Ducont.com FZ-LLC
Tel:  + 971-4-3913000 Ext 237
Fax: +971-4-3913001
http://www.ducont.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Falls, Travis D (CASD, IT) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: 04 August 2002 00:10
To: ActiveServerPages
Subject: RE: ECommerce Web site - Getting started advice


Diane, that was a great description on the basics of an ecommerce site.  I
especially like the way you broke out the tables.  I have a quick question
on this matter, how is a merch. account different from verisign?  Is it that
verisign validates the credit card, and merch does the bank transaction?


Regards,

Travis D. Falls
Software Engineer
The Hartford (CASD)
860.547.4070
[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
http://www.thehartford.com


-----Original Message-----
From: Diane Schips [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 3:54 PM
To: ActiveServerPages
Subject: RE: ECommerce Web site - Getting started advice


OK. My advice?  Write a clear, functional spec.  Put together some page to
show what the site will look like.  Then run it by the customer.  NOW is
when you want to find out that your ideas and hers (his?) don't match.

With your clear spec, design a data base, then code around it.

The hardest thing you'll have to deal with is moving from a state machine
(VB) to a stateless machine (the web).  All the server knows is that its
sending a page to a browser.  It has no idea of what page was last sent to
the browser, if any.  So you need to write into your code a way to keep
track of who is doing what.  A person selects a product, then clicks some
kind of select button and goes to another page.  OK, now you have whatever
product info was sent from the last page's form, and whatever you can look
up from the database based on info you have from the last form.  Does that
info include a customer number?  That could be in a cookie (people can and
do disable cookies), a session variable (can also be disabled, and not
supported in all browsers), a hidden variable (subject to hacking) or
something else?  I won't go into this discussion here, its a discussion all
unto itself, and something we all struggle with.

Some other things to keep in mind:
I recommend the following tables: customer, product, payment info, header,
detail, login.  The customer table holds customer info, the product table
holds product info, the payment table includes the customer ID, and holds
payment info (someone might want to keep on record more than one credit
card), The header table includes order information, the detail table include
information regarding item order, and the login table includes passwords,
usernames, and customer IDs.

The header table might include order number, customer number, order date,
shipping info (if different form billing info), payment info, if credit card
was accepted or declined, if order was shipped, etc.  The detail table might
include info on the order number this record belongs to, the item ordered,
the quantity, the price (always get your price from a lookup, never pass it
along on forms.  It's too easy for someone to hack when passing through
forms) and other info related to the item.

Customers need to edit their own info (address, phone, etc), and their
payment info (if you choose to store it).  You need to link ordered product
with order info, and to a customer.  You need to be able to get rid of
records created by orders that were initiated, but not complete.  You need
to give your customer a way to update product info, and to check on order,
customers, declined credit cards, orders that need to be shipped, etc.

Your customer needs an internet merchant account, which you will have to
integrate with (easy).

it sounds like a lot, but then most programs are.  Break it down into it's
pieces, then work on each piece.  But it is imperative that you have an
overall picture in your mind!

Good luck
Diane

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim MacDiarmid [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 5:02 PM
To: ActiveServerPages
Subject: RE: ECommerce Web site - Getting started advice


No real clear spec..

As for the other questions..  I've been doing VB programming for the last 5
years developing custom security applications, COM Objects, ActiveX
Controls, applications that interact with a database, advanced WIN32 API
programming, as well as some web applications in both Cold Fusion using
Fusebox and some ASP, but no ecommerce stuff, just intranet.

|-----Original Message-----
|From: Diane Schips [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
|Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 4:22 PM
|To: ActiveServerPages
|Subject: RE: ECommerce Web site - Getting started advice
|
|
|Ecommerce probably isn't a good starter program.  And it's a bit difficult
|to know where to tell you to start.  So I'll begin by asking you some
|questions.  How experienced are you as a programmer?  How much
|experience do
|you have with database programming?  Programming for the web?  Do
|you have a
|clear spec in what is wanted?
|
|Diane
|
|-----Original Message-----
|From: Jim MacDiarmid [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
|Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 3:55 PM
|To: ActiveServerPages
|Subject: ECommerce Web site - Getting started advice
|
|
|I'm in the process of gathering information on doing a web site for the
|owner of a arts and crafts store in my area. My mom sells her crafts in the
|owners store on consignment so I wanted to cut her a special deal
|since this
|is my first "customer" and first project.
|I was wondering if anyone here would be able to give me tips on how to get
|started on this. Also if there are any good books I should look at that
|would give me ideas and/or step by step advice on putting together a
|shopping cart,etc.
|
|Thanks in advance!,
|
|Jim MacDiarmid
|Manassas, Virginia
|Yahoo & AIM: Jim6763NVA
|
|
|
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