Re: [Adastra] Vandalism and right to roam

Sat, 25 Aug 2012 08:30:04 -0700 

In reply to Richard Price,
I do indeed think that old meadow is a very valuable habitat, as are ancient hedgerows. My point is that these forms of landscape were created by the very capitalist landowners who David Bangs feels are not currently caring for the land. As such I feel his stance is a double standard. With respect to the 'responsibility' for ploughing up old meadows, I place that at the feet of agricultural policy rather than the farmer trying to make a living, or the farm worker who drives the tractor. Farmers were compelled to plough up large areas of old meadow during the war and I think you'll find the 97% loss since then refers to those meadows still present at the end of the war. Yes, farmers could have said no to ploughing up their meadows after the war, but the drive for food production was imperative in post-war Britain where people went hungry because we couldn't grow enough to feed ourselves. It was impressed on farmers that they had a patriotic duty to squeeze as much production from their land as possible, which meant introducing all the modern methods which have been so bad for wildlife. What I object to in David Bangs' post is the ferocity with which he insists that all landowners are forces for evil. 


On 24/08/2012 18:29, [email protected] wrote:

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Today's Topics:

    1. Re: vandalism and right to roam (KAY fountain)
    2. Re: vandalism and right to roam (Richard price)
    3. Re: vandalism and right to roam ([email protected])
    4. Beekeeping Courses (Candi Gould)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 13:31:11 +0100
From: KAY fountain <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Adastra] vandalism and right to roam
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Hello all,

     This is the first time I've jumped in on a conversation, but David
Bangs has made me quite cross. Well done Sarah for your stand.
With regard to the statement that there is far more vandalism on private
land      'kids, dogs, litter, and
travellers notwithstanding...' is silly because this is precisely the
problem with public land.
I am interested that David thinks that old meadow is a valuable habitat
because this form of grassland was created by farmers 'vandalising' the
original habitat which might have been ancient forest, heathland, or
shrub cover in the far distant past. Large tracts of old meadow were
lost because the government forced farmers to plough it up during the
second world war, and the rest of the vandalism was largely due to the
pressure of successive agricultural policies, which are  really not the
farmer's fault. I could go on by pointing out that hedgerows are hardly
a natural feature and largely the result of the enclosures, but we'd be
here all day.
Farmers and landowners are stewards of the land under our current
sociopolitical system and that may not be to David's liking but it is
what we have to work with and realistically isn't going to change in the
near future. Accepting that isn't 'meek' it is pragmatic. There really
isn't any benefit in conservationists standing on one side of an
imaginary fence and throwing stones. That kind of behaviour impedes
progress and prevents cooperation.
I personally abhor all kinds of shootin', huntin' and fishin', and will
speak out against those who undertake these activities, but I'm quite
content to wander the many miles of public right of way across our green
and pleasant land, and do not agree with a general right to roam.
I also agree with Sarah that this subject is too big and not really
suitable for this forum.



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 16:08:26 +0100
From: Richard price <[email protected]>
To: Adastra discussion group <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Adastra] vandalism and right to roam
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Are you saying landowners including farmers are not responsible for clearing 
meadows? I member reading that 97% were lost since ww2. How did it happen one 
wonders? It was not all ploughed up during the war but was lost as a result of 
the change in policy from that point onwards. Landowners could have said no, 
but meadows were not worth as much as Crops.

I note that you seem to think meadows don't have value except perhaps as 
agricultural land. Please think again.

Well done David for your stand. I am cheering you on from the sidelines 
whomever you are.
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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 15:15:20 +0000
From: [email protected]
To: "Adastra discussion group" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Adastra] vandalism and right to roam
Message-ID:
        
<1965504524-1345821322-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-727725467-@b16.c19.bise7.blackberry>
        
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

What about all those wicked Neolithic farmers with their slash & burn 
agriculture destroying the ancient woodlands on the South Downs and leaving us with 
chalk grassland - selfish buggers, who gave them the right? ;-)
Sent using BlackBerry? from Orange

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard price <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 16:08:26
To: Adastra discussion group<[email protected]>
Reply-To: Adastra discussion group <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Adastra] vandalism and right to roam

Are you saying landowners including farmers are not responsible for clearing 
meadows? I member reading that 97% were lost since ww2. How did it happen one 
wonders? It was not all ploughed up during the war but was lost as a result of 
the change in policy from that point onwards. Landowners could have said no, 
but meadows were not worth as much as Crops.

I note that you seem to think meadows don't have value except perhaps as 
agricultural land. Please think again.

Well done David for your stand. I am cheering you on from the sidelines 
whomever you are.

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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 10:34:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Candi Gould <[email protected]>
To: Adastra discussion group <[email protected]>
Subject: [Adastra] Beekeeping Courses
Message-ID:
        <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

INTERMEDIATE BEEKEEPING SKILLS

This course is aimed at beekeepers that have some experience in beekeeping
and want to keep up to date.? The course is also an excellent way to
improve hive management skills without acquiring a formal
qualification.? This series of theory and practical evenings looks at
all aspects of managing a honey bee colony through the year including
transfer to new comb, making nucs, queen rearing, articicial swarming,
uniting, moving colonies, and inspection for diseases, honey production, extraction 
and bottling, feeding & apiary records.

It is 30 sessions every Tuesday evening from January 2013 running from
6.30pm to 9.30pm and includes practical sessions at the hives.? Cost
?800 the course code is AA9/12/B.? Contact: 01273 892052 Email: 
[email protected]



________________________________
  From: david bangs <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Adastra] Adastra Digest, Vol 75, Issue 11

  
Sarah...how do you know there is no 'vandalism' in the forbidden countryside if you meekly do not go there?? (and, by the way, both Scotland and Scandinavia have a freedom to roam, which is accepted with a broad measure of consensus and lack of controversy).


I can tell you categorically that there is much more 'vandalism' on private, 
forbidden countryside than on public land...kids, dogs, litter, and travellers 
notwithstanding...

Myself and friends are just in the middle of a long term survey of middle Sussex for old 
unimproved meadows and pastures and I can tell you that it is a hard task finding them, 
so comprehensively have private landowners destroyed them...and when we do find em the 
majority are damaged or at risk from bad or inappropriate management and sheer 
neglect...for "what the eye doesn't see the heart doesn't grieve over."

How can we ever make the alliances and build the broad public support for the 
conservation of nature if we keep reinforcing the message that the (landless) 
public...all the 90% of us in built-up areas...are the enemies, not the market, 
private property, and production for profit ?

It is only us urban oiks who have the collective potential to stop the 
destruction of nature...not the Daily Telegraph reading rural good-lifers who 
both privately enjoy nature (cos they have the money to own their bit of it) 
and destroy it (by their support and ownership of rampant private capital).

"The earth is a common treasury" (as was said by a wonderful guy of the name of 
Gerard Winstanley 360 years ago)

Dave Bangs


----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 7:55 AM
Subject: Adastra Digest, Vol 75, Issue 11



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?  1. Re: Adastra Digest, Vol 75, Issue 9 (Patrick Roper)
?  2. Re: Adastra Digest, Vol 75, Issue 9 (S J Patton)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 00:07:18 +0100
From: "Patrick Roper" <[email protected]>
To: "'Adastra discussion group'" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Adastra] Adastra Digest, Vol 75, Issue 9
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Sarah.? How, as a member of the public, does one get to the places where the
public is not allowed?



Patrick



From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of S J Patton
Sent: 22 August 2012 22:00
To: Adastra discussion group
Subject: Re: [Adastra] Adastra Digest, Vol 75, Issue 9



I'm not sure that free-range public access goes particularly well with
conservation. At least in areas where the public are not allowed there is no
dog fouling, litter or vandalism.



Sarah



? _____

From: david bangs <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, 22 August 2012, 21:55
Subject: Re: [Adastra] Adastra Digest, Vol 75, Issue 9


Lovely to hear of the increased no's of G Partridges, Corn Buntings et al on
the Norfolk estate near Burpham...but the conservation objectives for the
Partridge coincide with the 'sporting' objective of slaughtering them when
their numbers get up enuf to 'sustain' that...and the slaughtering of game
birds is incompatible with public enjoyment of the open countryside, cos the
gamekeepers / land police will see you off if you stray from statutory
access provision.

I am not aware that either the Angmering Park or the Arundel Castle estate
have dedicated a single acre of statutory access land on their
properties...and the only access we legally have is the access by statutory
rights of way and statutory access land...which WE the landless public
fought for...against the opposition of most big landowners...especially the
bird slaughtering ones...

Do tell me if I'm wrong.

We have no statutory open access to the lovely-but-damaged New Down chalk
grassland, or half the Barpham Hill chalk grasslands, and the walks over the
bleak arable prairies of the Angmering Park estate are as depressing as they
are exhilarating...with massed pheasants running around like gormless
chickens awaiting their slaughterage...and the other chalk grassland sites
(like Harrow Hill's wretched paddocked and disappearing west slope chalk
grassland) are merely under-managed/badly managed 'precious fragments' of a
destroyed landscape.

On the Arundel Castle estate we are still banned from access to the Park via
the traditional and popular Whiteways entrance cos of the needs of game bird
management in the northern park...so we miss easily seeing the Hellebores
and orchids and other wildlife which used to be so easily accessible (wot's
left of it).

The estate has just bought out the Forestry Commission lease on The Rewell,
and the visitor welcoming notices of the Forestry Commission have been
replaced by the Euroforestry notices which make no mention of public access
rights.

The Norfolk Estate say they will carry on managing The Rewell as the FC did
(and the FC had an important project for conserving Fritillaries...which
resulted in their re-introduction at Abbots Wood, folk will know).

I wouldn't put a penny on that...and my best guess is that there will be a
slow squeeze on open public access, less attention and focus on targetted
nature conservation management, and more emphasis on game bird management.

Again, tell me if I'm wrong.

If the FC had bought out the Arundel Estate Rewell freehold (rather than the
reverse) then the FC would dedicate the whole of The Rewell as statutory
access land...

Now that WOULD be something worth celebrating...

Dave Bangs


----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 12:00 PM
Subject: Adastra Digest, Vol 75, Issue 9



Send Adastra mailing list submissions to
[email protected]

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.sxbrc.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/adastra_lists.sxbrc.org.uk
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
[email protected]

You can reach the person managing the list at
[email protected]

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Adastra digest..."


Today's Topics:

? 1. Online Entomology Course (S J Patton)
? 2. Sussex wildlife-friendly farmer needs your vote! (Thomas, Adrian)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 23:17:34 +0100 (BST)
From: S J Patton <[email protected]>
To: Adastra <[email protected]>
Subject: [Adastra] Online Entomology Course
Message-ID:
<[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi

Does anyone know what happened with the online entomology course which was

being trialled?

Thanks,
Sarah
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 09:27:46 +0100
From: "Thomas, Adrian" <[email protected]>
To: "Adastra discussion group" <[email protected]>
Subject: [Adastra] Sussex wildlife-friendly farmer needs your vote!
Message-ID:
<[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

Hi Adastrans



Have you been to see the masses of Grey Partridges and Corn Buntings and
other farmland wildlife flourishing on the Norfolk Estate near Burpham
in West Sussex? Did you go and see the Rough-legged Buzzards or Pallid
Harrier there?



Well, Peter Knight who runs the farm, and has been so welcoming to
nature and naturalists, is one of the four finalists in this year's RSPB
Telegraph Nature of Farming Award, the UK's largest farm wildlife
competition.? The Award celebrates the great work that many farmers do
to care for our countryside.



I'd love it if you could take a couple of minutes to ensure we get a
Sussex farmer crowned as worthy champion. To cast your vote, go to
www.rspb.org.uk/farmvote. The vote closes on 5 September.



If you could get your friends and family to vote too, that'd be great.



Thanks guys.



Adrian
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End of Adastra Digest, Vol 75, Issue 9
**************************************





? _____

No virus found in this message.
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 07:59:10 +0100 (BST)
From: S J Patton <[email protected]>
To: Adastra discussion group <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Adastra] Adastra Digest, Vol 75, Issue 9
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hi Patrick,

Not entirely sure where you are coming from. Are you asking how I know that 
areas without the public are so nice?!!!!?

Alternatively. if you are playing devil's thingy, let me turn the question on 
it's head and ask WHY the public should have access to private land? Be that 
areas of the Arundel Estate, MoD land, or even my back garden!?
Just a quick example. When Pagham Harbour was closed off during the F&M 
outbreak, numbers and variety of breeding birds increased dramatically. The fact is 
that the majority of 'the public' have little or no understanding of the 
countryside be that from the farming or conservation perspective. Many of the 
heathlands near me are Access Land - covered in dog sh1t and ground-nesting birds 
continually harrassed by dogs off the leads. Personally I am glad that there are 
places where the public are not allowed, even if that means I can't go there either.

BTW, good to talk again - it's been a long time!

Sarah


________________________________
From: Patrick Roper <[email protected]>
To: 'Adastra discussion group' <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, 23 August 2012, 0:07
Subject: Re: [Adastra] Adastra Digest, Vol 75, Issue 9


Sarah.? How, as a member of the public, does one get to the places where the 
public is not allowed?
?
Patrick
?
From:[email protected] 
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of S J Patton
Sent: 22 August 2012 22:00
To: Adastra discussion group
Subject: Re: [Adastra] Adastra Digest, Vol 75, Issue 9
?
I'm not sure that free-range public access goes particularly well with 
conservation. At least in areas where the public are not allowed there is no 
dog fouling, litter or vandalism.?
?
Sarah
?

________________________________

From:david bangs <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, 22 August 2012, 21:55
Subject: Re: [Adastra] Adastra Digest, Vol 75, Issue 9

Lovely to hear of the increased no's of G Partridges, Corn Buntings et al on 
the Norfolk estate near Burpham...but the conservation objectives for the 
Partridge coincide with the 'sporting' objective of slaughtering them when 
their numbers get up enuf to 'sustain' that...and the slaughtering of game 
birds is incompatible with public enjoyment of the open countryside, cos the 
gamekeepers / land police will see you off if you stray from statutory access 
provision.

I am not aware that either the Angmering Park or the Arundel Castle estate have 
dedicated a single acre of statutory access land on their properties...and the 
only access we legally have is the access by statutory rights of way and 
statutory access land...which WE the landless public fought for...against the 
opposition of most big landowners...especially the bird slaughtering ones...

Do tell me if I'm wrong.

We have no statutory open access to the lovely-but-damaged New Down chalk 
grassland, or half the Barpham Hill chalk grasslands, and the walks over the 
bleak arable prairies of the Angmering Park estate are as depressing as they 
are exhilarating...with massed pheasants running around like gormless chickens 
awaiting their slaughterage...and the other chalk grassland sites (like Harrow 
Hill's wretched paddocked and disappearing west slope chalk grassland) are 
merely under-managed/badly managed 'precious fragments' of a destroyed 
landscape.

On the Arundel Castle estate we are still banned from access to the Park via 
the traditional and popular Whiteways entrance cos of the needs of game bird 
management in the northern park...so we miss easily seeing the Hellebores and 
orchids and other wildlife which used to be so easily accessible (wot's left of 
it).

The estate has just bought out the Forestry Commission lease on The Rewell, and 
the visitor welcoming notices of the Forestry Commission have been replaced by 
the Euroforestry notices which make no mention of public access rights.

The Norfolk Estate say they will carry on managing The Rewell as the FC did 
(and the FC had an important project for conserving Fritillaries...which 
resulted in their re-introduction at Abbots Wood, folk will know).

I wouldn't put a penny on that...and my best guess is that there will be a slow 
squeeze on open public access, less attention and focus on targetted nature 
conservation management, and more emphasis on game bird management.

Again, tell me if I'm wrong.

If the FC had bought out the Arundel Estate Rewell freehold (rather than the 
reverse) then the FC would dedicate the whole of The Rewell as statutory access 
land...

Now that WOULD be something worth celebrating...

Dave Bangs


----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 12:00 PM
Subject: Adastra Digest, Vol 75, Issue 9



Send Adastra mailing list submissions to
[email protected]

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.sxbrc.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/adastra_lists.sxbrc.org.uk
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
[email protected]

You can reach the person managing the list at
[email protected]

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Adastra digest..."


Today's Topics:

? 1. Online Entomology Course (S J Patton)
? 2. Sussex wildlife-friendly farmer needs your vote! (Thomas, Adrian)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 23:17:34 +0100 (BST)
From: S J Patton <[email protected]>
To: Adastra <[email protected]>
Subject: [Adastra] Online Entomology Course
Message-ID:
<[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi

Does anyone know what happened with the online entomology course which was 
being trialled?

Thanks,
Sarah
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 09:27:46 +0100
From: "Thomas, Adrian" <[email protected]>
To: "Adastra discussion group" <[email protected]>
Subject: [Adastra] Sussex wildlife-friendly farmer needs your vote!
Message-ID:
<[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

Hi Adastrans



Have you been to see the masses of Grey Partridges and Corn Buntings and
other farmland wildlife flourishing on the Norfolk Estate near Burpham
in West Sussex? Did you go and see the Rough-legged Buzzards or Pallid
Harrier there?



Well, Peter Knight who runs the farm, and has been so welcoming to
nature and naturalists, is one of the four finalists in this year's RSPB
Telegraph Nature of Farming Award, the UK's largest farm wildlife
competition.? The Award celebrates the great work that many farmers do
to care for our countryside.



I'd love it if you could take a couple of minutes to ensure we get a
Sussex farmer crowned as worthy champion. To cast your vote, go to
www.rspb.org.uk/farmvote. The vote closes on 5 September.



If you could get your friends and family to vote too, that'd be great.



Thanks guys.



Adrian
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End of Adastra Digest, Vol 75, Issue 9
**************************************





________________________________

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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5217 - Release Date: 08/22/12
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