Even if my first response was apparently off the mark and without
appropriate substantiation I will attempt to flesh out where my response
came from and outline further what worries me about this "serviceable
clarity" thesis.

Cheerskep says he feels frustrated when "smart people use words carelessly",
I take this to mean he feels frustrated by people he believes clearly have
good ideas about which they are speaking when their manner of speaking
betrays their "real" thought, or notions.  Perhaps that frustration also
comes from not immediately comprehending such speech due to the fuzziness.
My suspicion is that the former is the primary source of that frustration as
made evident in his complaint about William's usage of "synthesis".

Where I caught a glimpse of the "clear and distinct idea" undercurrent was
in the sense of separation of language and the "notion" Cheerskep always
talks about.  He says that the discreteness of words leads us to confusion
about the discreteness of notions, or what seems to me what is meant by the
singular "notion", the constantly shifting notions incompletely
distinguishable from one another, that are in turn referred to by words.
But again if fuzziness of language is remediable through sharper
attentiveness by us in our selection of words to correspond to current
notions then it must be possible for us to differentiate clearly between one
word and the next and moreover that we have a legitimate concept of both,
especially those with subtle differences (the sort we label as synonyms in
thesauruses).

>From another post: "The word then acts as an anodyne, a Valium, that quells
the fussing, the sense that our notion isn't sharp enough."

Speaking of sharpening notions and bringing fuzzy language into focus to
better serve the communication of our notions points down the path of a
theory of concepts in which they must have clarity and distinction as
evinced by our expressions concerning them.  So here did I mean to place my
example of a negative concept.  How could we obtain a sharper notion of a
negative concept?  My point regarding infinity was that our concept of it is
entirely vague and the notion cannot be sharpened in isolation, rather it
continues to serve us at all by its definition as what excludes it (and
developing is indeed possible but only by developing just those concepts it
excludes).  Beyond quick examples of negative concepts, complexes of ideas
constructed across crafted sentences can appear either ambiguous or
unnecessarily obtuse, but in those cases language is serving disambiguation
because the idea conveyed is not a positive concept (or notion).  It must
develop out of the text or conversation.  This is when language shows the
significance of its concreteness, that "carelessness" in formulation can
flash forth insight.

I am not attempting to read false ideas into Cheerskep's position here to
then attribute to him directly, instead I am trying to address what I did
read in some of his comments and its problematic implications.  Where words
appear to be atomized and language understood as serviceable and for
utility, without any further elaboration, in a theoretical framework, I,
perhaps wrongly, assume language and the movement of thought have been
falsely divided.  Language and thinking are ineluctably entwined.  The very
possibility of language, and further, communication, is based on structures
of thought and so human thinking within a linguistic context in turn is
structured to a significant degree by language.  We do not "think directly
in linguistic terms" but the structure of thinking is altered through the
development of language.  Nothing is more obvious to a translator than that
one language cannot be treated merely as a cipher for another.  Not only is
expression lost but also (objective, social) meaning.  Of course the words
in-themselves do not mean, but we commonly understand the social origin of
language and that it is the result of a developmental process in and through
communities of thought and practical activity, this is how its elements
obtain objectivity.  Languages, as developed through "usage", are frameworks
(modes, even) of thinking.  Thought, if we consider the basic capacity for
categorization as was discussed to be thought in some basic sense, is
primary, but it bears repeating that language and thought determine one
another.  It is a fantasy to believe that we properly think (really "think")
purely at some basic level but the content of that thought is ruined by
translation into this communicative tool, that it is just one direction from
thought to an act of communication.  The very reason I introduced dialectics
into the discussion is to present what many believe to be empty rhetorical
play, where one might think ambiguity is introduced to cover up
inconsistencies instead of sifting through them to obtain greater precision.
This is a misunderstanding of dialectical thinking and admonishments to
clarify philosophical language, especially where the philosophy is pursuing
a thought dialectically, are deleterious, indeed philosophy that wants to
say only "what is the case", captured in concise positive language can all
too effortlessly turn into an enemy of philosophy. 

-Brian

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 2:26 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Fuzzy writing, fuzzy reading.

Comfortably for Brian, he evidently missed my repeated posts asserting that 
ALL notion is indeterminate, indefinite, multiplex and transitory. Plus my
many 
remarks about how language misleads by "discreting" -- that is, since words 
are discrete -- i.e. "distinct" one from another, and you can see their 
"borders", their beginning and their end right there in front of us --   we
tend 
erroneously to assume the notions they allegedly label are also discrete. 

But even without reading those, he had all the evidence he needed, right in 
the post he was commenting on, to show I was perhaps the last person on the 
forum to champion "clear and distinct ideas".   

In that posting I remarked on the frustration I feel when I see smart people

USE words lazily, carelessly, fuzzily.

My major complain in the post to William was the proclivity too many of us 
have to use a word that doesn't convey our notion -- because we simply don't

stop to consider what a variety of notion the word has the potential to
occasion 
in our readers' minds. In William's post I cited the words 'perception', 
'synthesis', 'relationship', and 'explained'.   William, for example,
said 
"perception is the synthesis of" a painting and its contemplator. This, I
maintain, 
is a deceptively foggy assertion, a kind of fervid, dreamy locution written 
by someone who hasn't really worked to make his own notion serviceably
clear.   

In the posting Brian is commenting on, I explicitly urge speakers to sharpen

their "notion into as clear a degree as you can manage".   It didn't occur
to 
Brian to reflect on why I don't say, "sharpen them until they are clear and 
distinct." 

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