"But as talented as he was , could have done better with this composition. I feel he was not happy with this one."
Mando,could you, in few words, explain, from the point of two dimensional design, what you would correct in the composition?! Boris Shoshensky ---------- Original Message ---------- >From: armando baeza <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Cc: armando baeza <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Judging the late Titian Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 23:31:37 -0700 In reference to Diana and Actaeon only I'm amazed at the anger the word "clonker" brings out in a person. Relax William , all creative people do them, I'm sure you've done some that never show up in the galleries. I am quite convince that Titian is far above us. But as talented as he was , could have done better with this composition. I feel he was not happy with this one. I think he struggled. I saw it with fresh eyes, not though consensus eyes, that's the only way I see. Just imagine what the consensus of the judges in those days would be of your work, you would have to say, that's unfair you don't know what you are talking about, and you would be right. I know that my view is not fair to their time, but I'm not a consensus artist. I reflect the road I travel, not the road I'm told to travel. mando On Apr 5, 2009, at 10:39 AM, William Conger wrote: > I need to concede to Mando and Miller, and perhaps others here re > the tit-tat over Titian's late works. They persist in avoiding the > issues and persist in elevating their personal feelings about art > as the only measure of ITS value and not as simply an expression of > THEIR values. > > I certainly agree that the object has no intrinsic value/meaning > but I do think it can be surrounded by a surrogate value/meaning by > some process of consensus. I think this is what Saul was referring > to when he brought up Kant and the independent status of an essence > that can't be treated except subjectively. > > So, a consensus of subjectivity is the best we can do. And it > counts. When it comes to examining the work of a great artist, one > who has been awarded that status through a long and detailed and > complex process leading to consensus, we need to have the humility > to know the details of the consensus if we intend to judge it and > the artist's work as well. Mando and Miller think not. And Mando, > with his sparkling halo of the spiritual, intuitive artist, and > Miller, with his tortured anti-intellectual, anti-academic/ > institiutional predisposition, have the temerity to set me up as > some sort of alien supreme court pedagogue when it's abundantly > clear from their positions, that they, not me, and not others, > occupy the nefarious position because they just, well, sense their > authority in their souls. Not good enough for me. Why? Partly > because no artwork exists in a vacuum, unaffected by the home > cultures in which it was created and the later cultures it > passes through. So you can't expect to be prepared to judge a > work of art, even if you can experience it, without being steeped > in the auras of those surrounding cultures. Talk about the > experience all you like, be as moved or teary-eyed or as emboldened > as you wish, but don't attempt to judge until you have done some > homework. > > The fact is that no one here is dealing with my repeated efforts to > separate judgment from the sense/feeling of personal experience. > I'm just happy to know that this issue was resolved centuries ago > in courts. Not only in the USA by Justice Holmes but also in > republics long gone. Nowadays juries are rigorously instructed to > learn the aforementioned distinction. We no longer dip people into > hot vats of oil to see if they wiggle in agonizing death (thus > guilty) or just die limply (thus not guilty). These assertions of > intuitive, personal feelings as bona-fide judgment are akin to > those brutal and ludicrous actics of the Inquisition. > > WC > > > ________________________________ > From: armando baeza <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Cc: armando baeza <[email protected]> > Sent: Saturday, April 4, 2009 12:46:16 PM > Subject: Re: Judging the late Titian > > You are only defending your personal subjective ideas of what is > true to you and others like you, > As the "Supreme Court of Aesthetics". I don't buy that. > > mando > > On Apr 4, 2009, at 11:08 AM, William Conger wrote: > >> Savage is right. Ruthless in the defense of reason and intellect >> and knowledge and virtue and insight and nuance and deference to >> the spiritual feminine and all things true, beautiful, and fearful. >> WC >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: armando baeza <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Cc: armando baeza <[email protected]> >> Sent: Saturday, April 4, 2009 10:37:38 AM >> Subject: Re: Judging the late Titian >> >> I truly believe that his "savage" remark came from his soul. >> I feel sorry for him. >> Apache native >> mando >> >> On Apr 4, 2009, at 8:03 AM, [email protected] wrote: >> >>> In a message dated 4/3/09 8:23:38 PM, [email protected] >>> writes: >>> >>> >>>> And huzzah on your arrogant artist's defense of Titian, even >>>> those bad >>>> late ones. <g> >>>> >>>> Michael, you often bring a rewarding, arch, irony to your lines. >>> Occasionally >>> this undermines surety about what your own position is, but that >>> can be okay. >>> For example, it's unsure if you are praising or ridiculing >>> William here. >>> >>> I don't agree with William when he chastises Mando for daring to >>> deride any >>> work of Titian's -- as you also dae to do by insinuating Titian >>> had bad late >>> paintings. As Horace said, "Sometimes even noble Homer nods." I >>> have >>> frequent >>> dinners with a friend who is a Shakespeare scholar. The >>> admiration we feel for >>> W.S. is such that sometimes all we can do is shake our heads in >>> loving awe. >>> But we would never think of defending his every line. In truth, I >>> think that >>> to >>> condemn any criticism whatever of W.S. -- or Titian -- would be >>> to display a >>> defective sensibility. But I grant I can't be sure William was >>> being serious >>> when he rounded on Mando... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ************** >>> Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a >>> recession. >>> (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries? >>> ncid=emlcntuscare00000003 >>> ) ____________________________________________________________ You will believe your eyes! Click here for great whale watching packages! http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2241/fc/BLSrjpYXA9AtRAE0iCGipDXvXty63F AjlTjt5ZLY1F3IGx9tSN6DaaTabrK/
