You argue your point very well too bad its not my point - which you have chosen to miss understand - reflects is not the same as deals with - and the works audience need not be of its time - consequently "something" still rings true of a Manet, and the Dutch (Vermeer and Hals) and the Spanish (Valesquez, Ribera) masters so appreciated today had to wait till the late 19th century to be recognized as anything more than minor - why because they came to " reflect the economic, social, and cultural circumstances of its audience" (who at the time were the French)
On 4/28/09 9:37 AM, "Chris Miller" <[email protected]> wrote: Does the successful work of art necessarily reflect "the economic, social, and cultural circumstances of its audience" any better than those works deemed less successful? Saul, can you give us any examples? No? -- well -- here's a counter example: I ran up to Milwaukee a few weeks ago to see the first ever retrospective of Jan Lievens. Ever hear of him? Probably not, unless you specialize in Dutch Baroque painting. But he was something of a genius -- a professional artist at the age of 14 - and an exact contemporary of Rembrandt with whom he may actually have shared a studio. In their day, they were both recognized as equally hot properties, and one clever patron entertained himself by giving both of them commissions on the same subjects. Hand those results over to a cultural anthropologist, and I'm sure she'll be able to get just about the same information about "the economic, social, and cultural circumstances of its audience" Same materials -- same techniques - same subject matter -- same chiarascuro style -- but yikes! What a difference ! Lievens painted a Crucifixion that should be put into a closet and kept there. He just could not relate to sacred subject matter or sustain the composition of a large painting. (although, I think he was quite successful in other genres) This may be one of the few instances where Brady and I agree: if art is that which "reflects the economic, social, and cultural circumstances of its audience", then "everything an artist makes is art" (but then, so is every paperclip, note pad, button hook, spool of string, etc) Saul has dug himself a hole because, as William puts it, "it's a simple truism to say that art deals with the economic, social and cultural circumstances of its time. What doesn't? The statement cannot be falsified." So, in a desperate attempt to climb out, he then proposed that "artists are researchers" -- as if they were making discoveries about those social/cultural circumstances that improve our body of knowledge about them. But has a painter or sculptor ever been cited in the footnotes by a sociologist or economist ? Saul's notion of art (which is basically Heidegger's) just leads to one dead end after another - even if it is "the general thrust in MFA education". (concerning which I share William's horror. Oops - maybe I'm not the only one here who is dismayed concerning the art institutions of our day) ********* >this is anecdotal information - it does not extend from the object - nor does this aspect ability to identify something the economic, social, and cultural circumstances of its audience be a mark of its makers success - this is another Miller shell game - bait and switch - using the part rather than the whole - because he could not deal with the whole - which had to do with the successful work of art - and its ability to reflect the the economic,social, and cultural circumstances of its audience - in which is often centuries after the fact its been fun - to know that nothing ever changes here ____________________________________________ Saul Ostrow | Visual Arts & Technologies Environment Chair, Sculpture Voice: 216-421-7927 | [email protected] | www.cia.edu<http://www.cia.edu/> The Cleveland Institute of Art | 11141 East Boulevard, Cleveland, OH 44106 ____________________________________________________________ Click here to save cash and find low rates on auto loans. http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2231/fc/BLSrjnxXA8CpNhqIWWoRZSp2Kru40p LO58SHwcybZCNVUJWR72Ufe5lARW4/ --
