Frances to Michael with regards and thanks... 
My sweeping windy statements so far are an attempt at applying
what is known by me about pragmatism to an assessment of whether
a global theory of architecture might be possible to frame. Here
are some of my assumptions in reply to your probing queries or
remarks. 
(1) Only normal human organisms are driven toward art and science
and then by naturally compelled traits, but while art is given
more by pure disposition, science is taken more by sure
deliberation. In any event, the feeling of art and the knowing of
science must be a reasonable feeling and a reasonable knowing. 
(2) The phenomenal being and natural existence of art is a
precursor to and prepares for science in the sense that any
playing in mind on the forms of art are less degraded and
degenerative than are any sorting in mind on the laws of science.
My thought here goes somewhat to the ideas of Vico in regard to
the natural origin and dispositional evolution of humanity. In
other words, humans will and must play at art in the same way
that they grow hair, but humans need sort objects by the means of
science only if they want to or choose to in the same way that
they may trim that hair if they so desire. 
(3) For normal humans, the playing and gaming with objects for
sheer fun, or the grooming and preening of their bodies for mere
joy, are naturally disposed tendencies, and when such acts are
done for their own sake solely alone and for no other reason,
then this is likely the origin and source and root of art. It is
true of course that nonhuman animals also engage in such acts,
but they are compelled to do so for some ulterior reason, and not
for its own sake. 
(4) In regard to primitive persons being intelligent and in using
the ways and means of science, they can and will for example sort
plants by classes into food and nonfood, and if food into cooked
or uncooked, and if cooked into dry or wet, and so on. The point
here is that they do not need to do this kind of scientific act,
yet they will still be driven to eat some food to live. With
artistic kinds of acts like playing for fun and grooming for joy
for its own sake they must do it, because this kind of action is
an intrinsic part of being human; while sorting and classing
objects is not. There is also a holistic analogical continuity to
art that science seems to lack. 
(5) The issue of art being limited to only certain kinds of
objects, or of what objects might be the limit for art, is likely
addressed by the force and power that the form of eligible or
agreeable objects have to reflect worthy values and to evoke
intense responses. 
(6) The issue of what the substantive difference or differentia
is between art and science becomes less sharp and more fuzzy as
the two acts evolve. Their probable merging and blending would
certainly seem to be a reasonable eventuality. The act of art
here is meant to broadly include for example theistic religion
and metaphysic phenomena and hypothetic philosophy and
hermeneutic history and semic language and artistic art. The
notion that artistic acts are of pure feeling and that scientific
acts are of sure knowing still seems to have a reasonable ring to
it, but this notion of mine is tentative, thus some further
probes into pragmatism will be done to try and sort out this
thorny snarl of twine. (The term "artistic art" or simply
"artistics" is coined by me in an attempt to segregate this kind
of say fine art and applied art from other kinds of art like
religion or philosophy or history. The broader term "aesthetic
object" is further used to embrace the dyad of "natural aesthetic
objects" and "cultural aesthetic objects" like "social artistic
objects" and other kinds of art like "theal religious objects"
and so on.) 
(7) The results of the world are as the world phenomenally
exists, which is as the world seems to be, and these existent
results are given uncontrolled to sense, at least when the normal
human is in a relation with those objective results. It is the
relation joining the objective with the subjective that causes
the results to be given passively in an instance as an occurrence
to sense. 
(8) The relevant tenet in pragmatism that might be applied to the
issue of any substantive differences existing between art and
science deals with the progressive evolving hierarchy of stuff
and the temporary dominance of stuff as it grows. This is to say
that stuff will exist altogether and will also exist as some kind
of stuff in each situation or instance of its occurrence. In
regard to signs for example they will advance as an icon into an
index to a symbol, but will dominate as only one kind of sign in
each situation of semiosis as the event warrants it. It is the
object referred by the sign as both object and sign lay in a
ground together that will determine the kind a sign will be. In
regard to acts for another example they will advance as an art
into a tech to a science, but will dominate as only one kind of
act in each situation of activity as the event warrants it. It is
the object referred by the act as both object and act lay in a
ground together that will determine the kind an act will be. The
support for this kind of thinking is the phenomenal categories as
posited by realist pragmatism. 


-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Brady [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 10:37 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Architecture and Philosophy: Review

Frances wrote:
> There seems to be more similarities between art and science
than  
> there are differences. They are for example both acts of only
normal  
> humans, and tend to be engaged in naturally by instinct without
any  
> undue nurturing. There however seems to be a clear deference,
if not  
> a clear difference, between art and science. Science is likely

> driven to take objects by intelligence and knowledge.

Who or what is doing the driving? This is not a silly quibble
about  
the passive voice: If science is an exercise of the mind  
("intelligence," "knowledge"), then how is the motivation chosen
by  
the person? hHow is it put into operation? What does the human do

(choose, decide, etc.) in order to initiate the scientific
approach  
(being "driven")?
> Art is given uncontrolled to sense for its own sake solely
alone.  
> Art need only appeal to primitive emotional feelings in the
complete  
> absence of even any primal knowledge.

Again, who or what is doing the giving? Is art exclusively a
human  
product? Or are there some artifacts or artworks that are not
made by  
humans? If art is solely a human product, how is it "given,"
which  
implies it's outside the human who receives it?

> Art initiates in life as being an essential part of the normal
human  
> organism, and thus readily prepares for science, because
science  
> cannot generate itself without the human being and its artistic

> initiation, along with such acts as creation and invention and

> innovation.

You seem to imply that the human making of art is a precursor to
human  
science ("really prepares for science"), somewhat like ancient  
religions engendered alchemy and astrology, which led to the
sciences  
of chemistry and astronomy; that the fabricating of images led to
more  
ordered organization of knowledge, which led to science as we  
understand the term. Is this a fair summary of your
understanding?
> For science to consume art is not for science to embrace art  
> totally, but rather for science to be guided by art. While
humans  
> likely cannot survive and thrive without the act of art, which
they  
> will engage in despite themselves, they can exist quite well
without  
> the act of science, aside from their primal intelligence and
innate  
> curiosity to know the stuff around them.

This is a rather sweeping assertion: art is essential to human  
survival but science is not. On what basis do you make a
distinction  
between the objects of "primal intelligence and innate
curiosity,"  
which you seem not to deem organized knowledge, and "the act of  
science," which is? 
> Art is limited as to what objects can be art, but once objects
are  
> smartly agreed to be art, the works and say their beauty will

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