If non-verbal music represents nothing - has no content - and therefore cannot engage any questions about the human condition (free will versus. determinism, etc) ------- how can we call any of it "profound"?
Kivy says that we can't - as long as we're willing to distinguish between profound (the adjective) and profoundly (the adverb), and he notes that most arguments about profundity are attending exclusively to adverb. To say that "Beethoven's Fifth Symphony has been profoundly influential or profoundly defiant" does not imply that Beethoven's Fifth Symphony is profound. (just as, in our discussions on this list, to say that an abstract painting can be profoundly meaningless, would not imply that an abstract painting can be profound) "For a work of art to be profound - and literature is the obvious example here - it must (1) have a profound subject matter and (2) treat this profound subject matter in a way adequate to its profundity." (p. 145) Of course, we are all free to make our own definitions -- the most common of which would probably be: "Profundity is whatever feels really really important to me". But if you're going to move beyond that obvious solipsism, I don't know where you can go besides a definition similar to Kivy's. Apparently Kivy made this assertion is an earlier book of his, "Music Alone", to which various philsophers have replied. So in this chapter, Kivy deals with two of those replies at some length. And he demonstrates, at least to my satisfaction, that these opposing argument are either attempting to stretch the adverb, profoundly, into the adjective, profound (Aaron Ridley) - or - they conflate expression with being about expression (Jerrold Levinson) So ask yourself, when you are listening to music that feels sad, are you then led to reflect on the notion of "sadness"? Kivy doesn't and neither do I. Not that we can speak for the majority of listeners - but should the study of aesthetics be conducted by "the boring and laborious process of polling listeners" (as Kivy calls it) And even you reflect on some notion of sadness - do you ever frame that reflection as a question which might have a true or false answer? "One can, perhaps, get the music to be "about" But to make it say anything interesting, let along profound about anything, seems beyond the ingenuity of philosophy, at present, to achieve. Of course, one can never prove the negative, so I will be forced to leave it at that" But still ---- What words would we use to distinguish the value of a Beethoven symphony from that of a 3 minute pop song ? And why wouldn't this same argument apply to abstract painting and sculpture? And if we consider John Coltrane's "Love Supreme" to be profound, would it really be any less so if the phrase "A Love Supreme" were omitted from the performance? ____________________________________________________________ Weight Loss Program Best Weight Loss Program - Click Here! http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2231/c?cp=sA2moVnjf4JLm1-jpeZ_5wAAJz6c l_zTaptgNR5c8Mer1v9kAAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEUgAAAAA=
