I feel the same. Boris Shoshensky ---------- Original Message ---------- From: armando baeza <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Cc: armando baeza <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Reading Kivy: Chapter 7 "The Liberation of Music" Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 17:58:52 -0700
Boris, I feel on music, is, that notes we become familiar with, become objects, the same as what we perceive with our eyes and become forms,like in painting or sculpture. So relating those forms, melodies happen. So , all Mozart and Jazz composers do, is make improvisations according to their skill and aesthetics and hopefully, ours. then joy happens. That's the simple version . Little lamseekivy. Eat didn't fit ;-) just kidding. Old American melody from the 30's. mando On Oct 21, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Boris Shoshensky wrote: > "what I am suggesting is that in the contentfull arts our thought > processes > work both in the world of the work and in the world of the world, > whereas in > absolute music, our thought processes, at least ideally, are at > play in the > world of the work alone" > > Another example of Kivy's simplistic approach to arts. > We can't separate "contentfull" of music from all other arts, true > arts. They > all have the same immanent nature expressed in different forms. The > term > "absolute music" is simply dumb. No art is "at play in the world of > the work > alone". Autonomy of art is not absolute. > What about creator (artist), and "creator" of creator- Nature? > Boris Shoshensky > To: [email protected] > Subject: Reading Kivy: Chapter 7 "The Liberation of Music" > Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 13:49:42 GMT > > The first half of this final chapter pursues, again, the same > question raised > in Chapter 6 -- i.e. the content of wordless music, and since, as > Kivy has > already noted, there is no limit to the ingenuity of proposing such > content, > Kivy's refutation of it's importance is becoming a bit tiresome. But I > suppose > that as a philosopher who specializes in music, > that refutation is his professional duty, and those who have ever > performed > Bach's "Art of the Fugue" might find this discussion interesting. > > But the chapter gets interesting when Kivy finally asks "If > absolute music > has > no content, why on earth are so many people so interested in it? > Why, in a > word, do they love it so much?" (p. 202) > > And Kivy's answer is: > > "I do not value, enjoy, or love music in spite of the fact that, > unlike the > literary or visual arts, it has no content..... but .... just > because it > has > no content" > > And he pulls out a quote from Schopenhauer that shares his sentiment: > > "When, however, an external cause or inward disposition raises us > out of the > endless stream of willing, and snatches knowledge from the thraldom > of the > will, the attention is now no longer directed to the motives of > willing, but > comprehends things free from their relation to the will. Thus it > considers > things without interest , without subjectivity, purely objectively; > it is > entirely given up to them in so far as they are merely > representations, and > not motives. Then, > all at once the peace, always sought but always escaping us on the > first > path > of willing, comes to us of its own accord, and all is well with us" > > Which Kivy then presents as a notion of "liberation". > > The literary and visual arts engage us with the world -- but music > liberates > us from it. > > "what I am suggesting is that in the contentfull arts our thought > processes > work both in the world of the work and in the world of the world, > whereas in > absolute music, our thought processes, at least ideally, are at > play in the > world of the work alone" > > "It is the blessing of absolute music that it frees our thought to > wander in > worlds that are completely self sufficient: worlds where all is > resolved, so > to speak, with no loose ends, worlds that when they are grasped > satisfactorily, give us > thought processes that , if the composer is up to it, can only > succeed, can > only resolve to a satisfactory conclusion" > > And then, finally, he addresses the question as to why an abstract > painting > or > sculpture might not produce the same effect: > > "It is, of course, true that the visual arts have produced > examples of > non-representational objects, paintings, sculptures, > "constructions" in our > own century, and there is no reason to doubt that in such cases the > same > liberating quality ... may well accrue to the experience of these > artistic > objects as well. But the fact remains - and it is a fact in need of > explanation - that no artistic practice in the Western world has > approached > absolute music in significance as an art of this "liberating" kind" > > Do you agree? > > I'm not sure -- because, on the one hand, I'm not aware of a lot of > discussion about music as "liberation" from anyone except Kivy, and > I don't > know how often that idea is raised in discussions of, say, minimalist > painting/sculpture which would seem to be the most likely place to > find it. > > And so much of 20th C. absolute music offers nothing like the > feeling of > 'resolution' that Kivy has been enjoying in music from earlier > centuries. > > And don't sporting events offer liberation from our daily world as > well? > > And what is the difference between 'liberation' and 'escapism' ? > > Which is to say - that I find Kivy's explanation for why I love some > non-verbal music to be utterly inadequate. > > But, clearly, it does work for him > > And that I find interesting. > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > Smile! 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