Saul: See Norton Anthology of Theory and Criticism, 2nd edition, p 1747, etc. More details tomorrow.
WC ________________________________ From: saul ostrow <[email protected]> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Cc: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2013 9:59 PM Subject: Re: Aesthetic experience I like this - where do I find this account Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 26, 2013, at 6:07 PM, William Conger <[email protected]> wrote: > > I'm still trying to understand Li Zehou and his notion of 'sedimentation' and > the Chinese concept of 'qi'. > > What he does is blend Kant and Marx. > > He has > the notion that our aesthetic sensibiity has been shaped by early huan uses of > tools, utilitarian, things, etc. so that gives aesthetics a materialist basis. > > > This could, if developed in a clear argument which I am not ready to make, > expalin Saul's idea that judgment precedes aesthetic experience. I think Li > would equate Saul's term 'judgement' with his notion of cultural and > historical sedimentation which forms the sources for "inutitive a-priori" > understanding. > > wc > > ________________________________ > From: armando baeza > <[email protected]> > To: saul ostrow <[email protected]>; > [email protected] > Cc: armando baeza <[email protected]> > Sent: > Thursday, December 26, 2013 1:51 PM > Subject: Re: Aesthetic experience > Sorry, Saul, I have sculpture to do, and you need friends > that understand you. > So long to this group most of which > has been fun for me. even when you cut > them off. > > mando > >> On Dec 25, 2013, at 10:28 PM, saul ostrow wrote: >> > Personally I only have spirit soul >> Seems so hollow >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Dec 26, 2013, at 1:03 AM, armando baeza <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> If indifference is in your soul ,indifference is what you will get . >>> >>> mando >>>> On Dec 25, 2013, at 9:31 PM, saul ostrow wrote: >>>> >>>> Where's > the kanthan indifference in this >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Dec > 25, 2013, at 11:44 PM, armando baeza <[email protected]> > wrote: > If that is what experience likes as a'e,that's is your reward. >>>>> >>>>> ab >>>>>> On Dec 25, 2013, at 7:00 PM, saul ostrow wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> So it > doesn't seek me - I have to work for it - and if lucky as a reward > I get the > pentimento of some prior experience >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 25, 2013, at 6:50 PM, armando baeza <[email protected]> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The act of creating, spins the Memory wheel of fortune > which will award > you with an A;E, if you are lucky. If it fails, > blame your memory. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> mando >>>>>>>> On Dec 25, 2013, at 1:12 PM, > saul ostrow wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I thought being open to such experiences > would >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Dec 25, 2013, at > 4:02 PM, armando baeza <[email protected]> > wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> One > problem, create something that may attract them . >>>>>>>>> ab >>>>>>>>>> On Dec > 24, 2013, at 1:21 PM, saul ostrow wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Probably a > different bloodline - the great ones are probably Polish > rather > than Ukrainian - but this matters little I will now sit and wait > for my >>>>>>>>>> unconscious to attract an A.E. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent from my > iPhone >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2013, at 3:47 PM, armando baeza > <[email protected]> > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I've know many Great > Ostrows in my long life of 90 years,but you > are >>>>>>>>>>> the first one that > really stands out in my mind, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> mando >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2013, at 8:19 AM, saul ostrow wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I was hoping that this would even be accessible to a > fool like me > - >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2013, at 2:06 AM, armando baeza > <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> NICE GUYS > LIKE YOU ARE ARE HIGHLY RESPECTED. >>>>>>>>>>>>> AB >>>>>>>>>>>>> > On Dec 23, 2013, at 8:27 PM, saul ostrow wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> So > it's fool >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Proof >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 23, 2013, at 11:07 PM, armando baeza > <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most > creative people do. And that is one "why". >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mando >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 23, 2013, at 8:01 PM, saul ostrow wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so I unconsciously seek it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 11:00 PM, armando > baeza >>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your > memory knows where you are and when to award you with an > A,E. > serendipiously. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mando >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 23, 2013, at > 7:40 PM, saul ostrow wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> poetic - but I > have yet to meet an experience looking for me >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 8:26 PM, armando > baeza >>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One > does not discover an aesthetic experience,It discovers > you, And >>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>> never know it will happened till it happens, but it is always > connected >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> some forgotten Memory. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mando >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 23, 2013, at 3:22 PM, saul ostrow > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If this were true creativity would > be little more than a > habitual >>>>>>>>>> act >>>>>>>>>>> a mere routine rather > than a process of discovery >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my > iPhone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 23, 2013, at 5:47 PM, > armando baeza > <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think it has everything with the Experience in the > process of >>>>>>>>>>> creating,which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is > where all of one's memory exists. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ab >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On > Dec 23, 2013, at 1:52 PM, saul ostrow wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Again these evaluations have little to do with experience >>>>>>>>>>> (sensation) which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lies in the realm of > perception (impression) and > cognition >>>>>>>>> (object > formation). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 23, 2013, at 1:31 PM, armando > baeza >>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, from extremely beautiful to extremely ugly,yet any > thing in >>>>>>>>>>> between >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> may have both qualities from > which one my sense beauty > and >>>>>>>>>>> another >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> may > sense ugly,then we have the others, that wait to see > what >>>>>>>>>>> others > are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sensing. > mando >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 23, 2013, at 10:16 AM, > William Conger wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or downright > scary. Or disgusting. Or deadly...like the > last >>>>>>>>>>> moment of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> life >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as one is shot. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wc >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ > From: saul ostrow >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "[email protected]" > <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: > "[email protected]" > <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December > 23, 2013 12:03 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Aesthetic experience >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One more > observation - why is assumed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> here that a.e. Is a > pleasurable >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experience rrather than one that is merely >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transformative - or something other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than common > Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Dec >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 23, 2013, at 12:13 PM, [email protected] wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In a message dated >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 12/21/13 4:48:45 PM, [email protected] writes: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Don't > we then get into >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> classifying different types of > experience and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussing why they are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different, and isn't that another way of asking >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the question:what is an > aesthetic experience ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The > best any of us can do is try to indicate what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we CALL an > "aesthetic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experience". When I hear/read/see certain > specific >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stimuli, I experience > what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> strikes me as a sui generis feeling. I call it an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "aesthetic experience", >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "a.e.". For example, I read lots of poetry; >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> most of it leaves me cold; >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the rare, cherishable poem occasions in me an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "a.e.". What's strange and > interesting to me is that other unmistably >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> distinct > stimuli -- moments in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dance, paintings, music, drama -- > can also >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> occasion in me feelings that -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> despite the vast difference in the genres -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also strike me as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unquestionably >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "aesthetic experiences". >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why? What the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hell is going on > when I get that a.e. feeling? I should > say >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "going on IN >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ME", because it's obvious not all people react as I do. > It >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from time to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time seems to me that other people, people of sincerity > and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sophistication, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are > experiencing a feeling of the sort I call an 'a.e.' > as > they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contemplating a stimulus > that is leaving me cold. All of > these >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> varieties of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experience would have to be accounted for in an > aesthetic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theory >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be persuasive to me. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <image.png> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <image.png>
