I get RF from Cisco. 

> On Nov 21, 2019, at 7:54 AM, Adam Moffett <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> Are those pre-owned / refurb?
> 
> On 11/21/2019 12:57 AM, Cassidy B. Larson wrote:
>> I’m able to get 10 Cisco ASR920s for under 10k from Cisco.  Just depends on 
>> who your account team is, and how much business you do.  Just like 
>> Streakwave, Winncom, etc.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Nov 20, 2019, at 8:10 PM, Sterling Jacobson <[email protected] 
>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Uh, yeah.
>>>  
>>> $10k doesn’t buy me enough functionality.
>>> Would need 10 of those.
>>>  
>>> From: AF <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> On 
>>> Behalf Of Josh Baird
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 6:54 PM
>>> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected] 
>>> <mailto:[email protected]>>
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] MPLS
>>>  
>>> Why?  Price?
>>>  
>>> On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 7:53 PM Sterling Jacobson <[email protected] 
>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>> No thanks.
>>>  
>>> From: AF <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> On 
>>> Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 5:12 PM
>>> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected] 
>>> <mailto:[email protected]>>
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] MPLS
>>>  
>>> Time to grow up… Juniper ACX or Cisco ASR920
>>>  
>>> From: AF <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> on 
>>> behalf of Sterling Jacobson <[email protected] 
>>> <mailto:[email protected]>>
>>> Reply-To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected] 
>>> <mailto:[email protected]>>
>>> Date: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 4:10 PM
>>> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected] 
>>> <mailto:[email protected]>>
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] MPLS
>>>  
>>> Well put.
>>>  
>>> Capacity/speed is an issue with me, so I think I introduced some possible 
>>> bottlenecks above 4.5Gbps using MPLS/VPLS in my own network which is 
>>> Mikrotik.
>>> VPLS endpoints I don’t think were/are hardware offloaded, so required some 
>>> great CPU capacity at the edge and core for large transport.
>>> I also think I had MTU issues with so many layers of “layer2” stuff going 
>>> on inside and outside of MPLS tunnels, native interfaces, VPLS endpoints, 
>>> bridges and VRRP interfaces along with VLAN at some endpoints.
>>>  
>>> However, with the right equipment (not Mikrotik) MPLS is fully capable and 
>>> large networks use them to diversely traverse redundant paths back to a 
>>> central core.
>>>  
>>> My problem also was geo-diverse BGP cores to different providers as stated 
>>> below.
>>> I was running EVERYTHING on a Mikrotik 1072 CCR, lol!
>>> It still drives me crazy hunting down issues where I still have 
>>> MPLS/OSPF/BGP/VRRP/VLAN on one device across multiple interfaces, lol!
>>>  
>>> From: AF <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> On 
>>> Behalf Of Dennis Burgess via AF
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 12:56 PM
>>> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected] 
>>> <mailto:[email protected]>>
>>> Cc: Dennis Burgess <[email protected] 
>>> <mailto:[email protected]>>
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] MPLS
>>>  
>>> You can, its up to you.
>>>  
>>> Is routing faster on MikroTik by using MPLS/VPLS? No
>>> Do you gain extra capacity by reducing the router load per packet by using 
>>> MPLS?  Yes, think looking at 4-bytes of data vs 40.  Is it 10 fold 
>>> increase, no but you get the point.
>>> What is the big deal about MPLS without VPLS?  Just that it does get you a 
>>> bit of extra capacity.  Bout it.
>>> Why does everyone want to run VPLS?  VPLS gets you the IP and subnet 
>>> savings.  You do need to design your core network correctly to handle this. 
>>>  If you have a single core router and all of your tunnels go to that, then 
>>> yes if it goes down yes your tunnels are down, but may of our customers 
>>> have to have redundancy, so multiple edges, connected to multiple cores, 
>>> connected to multiple VPLS termination boxes, connected to multiple PPPoE 
>>> servers.  Etc.   The core is VERY robust, but the general network is not.  
>>> This also does not work very well if your have multiple geographically 
>>> diverse BGP feeds, i.e. everything goes back to the datacenter and that’s 
>>> where it is, great, but otherwise, it gets to the point that it not worth 
>>> the effort.
>>> L2VPNs?  Weill there are a few customers that prefer them, but in all 
>>> honestly there is better, more secure, and faster protocols out there.  
>>> Keep in mind that L2VPNs are fine if all of the customers are on your 
>>> network, but they seldom are, so you will need a plan for those guys as 
>>> well.  My questions is why do you build your network to deliver something 
>>> that people don’t want, a layer 2 network connection.  If you are 
>>> delivering Pipes then sure, but you have to have the capacity and 
>>> availability to do so.  Most Wisps, not all, don’t have this figured out.  
>>> 99% of the time, they can make more money by providing a managed L3 
>>> solution than L2 anyways. 
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>> <image001.png>
>>> Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
>>> MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium ePMP 
>>> Certified 
>>> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
>>> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
>>> Office: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net 
>>> <http://www.linktechs.net/>
>>> Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com 
>>> <http://www.towercoverage.com/>
>>>  
>>> From: AF <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> On 
>>> Behalf Of Adam Moffett
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 1:17 PM
>>> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] MPLS
>>>  
>>> So do you tunnel everything back to the core and then do "router on a 
>>> stick" ?
>>> 
>>> On 11/20/2019 2:14 PM, Gino A. Villarini wrote:
>>> Yeap VPLS is where is at…
>>>  
>>> VPLS tunnels to the towers, CORE routing + L2VPN to customers( Enterprise, 
>>> Wholesale)
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>> Gino Villarini 
>>> Founder/President
>>> @gvillarini
>>> t: 787.273.4143 Ext. 204 
>>> m: 
>>> 
>>>  <http://www.aeronetpr.com/>
>>>  <http://www.aeronetpr.com/>
>>>   <http://www.aeronetpr.com/>       
>>>   <http://www.aeronetpr.com/>       
>>>   <http://www.aeronetpr.com/>       
>>>   <http://www.aeronetpr.com/>       
>>>   <http://www.aeronetpr.com/>       
>>> www.aeronetpr.com | Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, PR 00968 
>>> <http://www.aeronetpr.com/>
>>> From: AF <[email protected]> on behalf of Josh Baird 
>>> <[email protected]>
>>> Reply-To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected]>
>>> Date: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 3:09 PM
>>> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected]>
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] MPLS <http://www.aeronetpr.com/>
>>>   <http://www.aeronetpr.com/>
>>> It seems like lots of people in the WISP-world are running MPLS just to use 
>>> VPLS.  Reasons for doing this are typically to achieve better IPv4 
>>> utilization (not having to route a block of IP's to each POP and maybe 
>>> wasting IPv4, etc). <http://www.aeronetpr.com/>
>>>   <http://www.aeronetpr.com/>
>>> Another common use-case is providing L2VPN services for customers 
>>> (connecting multiple locations together, etc). <http://www.aeronetpr.com/>
>>>   <http://www.aeronetpr.com/>
>>> On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 2:03 PM Adam Moffett <[email protected]> wrote: 
>>> <http://www.aeronetpr.com/>
>>> I think I don't fully understand what the advantages are of MPLS. 
>>> <http://www.aeronetpr.com/>
>>>   <http://www.aeronetpr.com/>
>>> I mean I've been reading the white-papers and such, and I see it brings 
>>> some features to the table, but when are we going to use them? 
>>> <http://www.aeronetpr.com/>
>>>   <http://www.aeronetpr.com/>
>>> Routing speed: <http://www.aeronetpr.com/>
>>> MPLS can make forwarding decisions faster.  When they made this in the 
>>> 1990's I'm sure that was a big deal, but I'm doubting whether there is 
>>> really measurably better latency on modern hardware.  Is there? 
>>> <http://www.aeronetpr.com/>
>>>   <http://www.aeronetpr.com/>
>>> Traffic Engineering: <http://www.aeronetpr.com/>
>>> It can do redundancy, but it seems to rely on the routing protocol (eg 
>>> OSPF) to know which paths are up.  I don't understand what that buys us.   
>>> <http://www.aeronetpr.com/>
>>> It can do load sharing on unequal paths.  Admittedly that's very hard to do 
>>> with L3 routing protocols, and that would have been extremely useful at one 
>>> point in time.  But how often does that happen now that we're in a world of 
>>> gigabit and 10gigabit connections? <http://www.aeronetpr.com/>
>>> L2 tunneling <http://www.aeronetpr.com/>
>>> It can transport L2 traffic over an L3 network.  It does it with less 
>>> overhead (8 bytes) than any other method I can think of.  I don't really 
>>> see a downside to this.   <http://www.aeronetpr.com/>
>>> So are people running MPLS just to get VPLS tunnels, or do you find that 
>>> the other tools in the MPLS toolbox matter in today's world?   
>>> <http://www.aeronetpr.com/>
>>> -- 
>>> AF mailing list
>>> [email protected]
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 
>>> <http://www.aeronetpr.com/>
>>>   <http://www.aeronetpr.com/>
>>> -- 
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>>> <http://www.aeronetpr.com/>-- 
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>> 
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