On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, David Coudron
<[email protected]>
<mailto:[email protected]> wrote:
There are valid reasons for deciding to take this vaccine,
the shingles vaccine, the flu vaccine, or a myriad of other
medications. Each decision should be based on risk/reward
of that drug and the medical condition being treated. To
think that you know everyone’s medical situation better than
they do doesn’t seem very feasible and awfully
presumptive. To call them selfish for making a decision
they believe is in their best medical interest seems overly
judgmental. Yes, there are people are deciding not to take
it simply because they think they shouldn’t be forced to
take a medical treatment against their will. You may feel
that we should force them to take the treatment for the
better good. I doubt you would feel the same about
mandatory castration of young men to curb overcrowding of
the earth. Obviously there is a line somewhere about
forced treatment for the greater good. I am not attempting
to determine where that line is, only suggesting that folks
have valid medical reasons for not deciding to take the
vaccine and they shouldn’t be publicly shamed for making
that decision. It doesn’t seem that far fetched, but I am
learning I see things differently than some other folks.
So be it.
I love the argument that we have to get vaccinated, but we
still have to act like the vaccine doesn’t work in order to
save the human race. Seems like a disconnect there.
If we were really so worried about infecting others or
causing harm to others, we would avoid all other activities
that create risk for others. We’d never drive a car, much
less have a beer and get in a car. I doubt that very many
of us on this list can say that. We would never allow the
sale of fatty foods. We would force each and everyone to
get to a body mass within our accepted range. Keep in mind
life is risky. We don’t need to do stupid things, but
being alive carries with it the risk of dying. We are all
much more likely to die of heart disease, stroke related
illness, or cancer than we are of Covid. Those are just
the facts. Many folks make small adjustments to reduce the
risk of those likely causes of mortality, but have long ago
passed on decisions to make big changes to eliminate the
possibility of those causes of death.
I have long ago decided not to live in constant fear of
these things. While I chose to be vaccinated, I respect the
right of folks to make the best choice for their
situation. I also respect the right of someone who is not
in the best physical condition to eat a steak. I realize
that a drunk driver might kill me some day, but I respect
the right of individuals to go to a bar and expect that most
(but not all) are responsible enough not to drink and drive
when they have had too much.
Keep in mind that this virus would have never come to our
country if we never allowed anyone in or out of it. But we
understand that certain personal freedoms are worth the
possibility of catching a disease that might kill us. I
have a tough time with the mass hypochondria surrounding
this situation.
Sorry, I am not meaning to make anyone mad, just trying to
keep perspective. I just don’t understand why folks get
so bent out of shape if they are already vaccinated. I
guess they don’t believe the vaccine will work because if it
does, there is nothing to worry about.
I wager that given Covid’s relation to influenza like
viruses, that it is with us permanently. We will have
yearly updates to the vaccination, but we’ll never be rid of
it. Not because people aren’t getting vaccinated, but
because it will always mutate ahead of the vaccine, just
like the flu virus. Please don’t take this as an argument
to not work on vaccines, we absolutely should as it will
save lives. But as Carl pointed out below, vaccines aren’t
100% effective……. 😊
I will lay a friendly wager down. Remember, we had a AIDS
epidemic several years ago. Did we force people to stop
having sex or many of the other high risk things that led to
AIDS? Does anyone even talk about AIDS anymore? 32
million people died of AIDS and people still die from it. No
one talks about it any more. Covid will be the same way in
10 years. That is my bet.
Again, lots of stuff to poke holes in here I am sure. My
only original point was that there are valid reasons folks
chose not to get vaccinated. We can’t and shouldn’t know
what they are, but should respect their right to chose.
*From:* AF <[email protected]>
<mailto:[email protected]> *On Behalf Of * Carl Peterson
*Sent:* Friday, July3, 2021 4:30 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected]>
<mailto:[email protected]>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
No vaccination is 100% effective. From a public policy
perspective, you need to pull on the levers that work in
order to get R0 to be less than 1. We know that a good
percentage of people will follow a mask mandate. Even if
most of that group is vaccinated that lever will still do
something since no vaccine is 100% effective and some number
of that population is walking around as symptom-free
carriers at any given time.
Getting most people vaccinated would be the best way to
lower R0, but if someone is too self centered to care about
their neighbors or their country there isn't much you can do
to make them care. That lever isn't doing much these days.
The issue here really is about what is best for society vs
what an individual thinks is best for themselves. An
individual's personal risk of having serious Covid
complications is pretty low so if they believe there is some
risk to the vaccine and don't account for externalities,
e.g. them infecting other people, then it's hard to convince
them to get vaccinated.
On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 4:05 PM Dennis Burgess
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
wrote:
Why does someone who has made an informed choice not to
get vaxxed by a NON-FDA approved drug have not sit out
in timeout? This is a free society, if you are so
scared, you stay home. I will take my chances.
**
*<image001.png>*
*Dennis Burgess*
*
*Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
*Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
*Office*: 314-735-0270 Website:
http://www.linktechs.net <http://www.linktechs.net/>
Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com
<http://www.towercoverage.com>
Need MikroTik Cloud Management:
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*From:* AF <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> *On Behalf Of *Jan-GAMs
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 3:32 PM
*To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
There is no having a sane discussion on this topic.
This is more like a whining child having an open
temper-tantrum in public. Un-vaxxed persons are a health
hazard and attempting to explain this to a child is a
bit difficult. Those who don't have a vaccine should not
be allowed in public. Every time a non-vaxxed person
gets sick with Covid there is the potential for a new
variant even worse than the Delta variant. Un-vaxxed
persons should be quarrantined as they are a
health-hazard to everyone around them and to the public
at large.
On 7/23/21 1:11 PM, David Coudron wrote:
I know, we can all make our own decisions. However,
I don’t believe I have stated anything that varies
from the facts. I can send you the Moderna sheet I
received with my vaccine if you want to see that.
Your points about FDA approval are probably
accurate, however, why is not OK to say that I want
to wait for the approval? That doesn’t seem so
unreasonable. We don’t let folks on the plane based
on the likelihood that those on the no-fly list
probably won’t show up to get on the plane anyway.
We still check each and every person to make sure.
Just like we do the FDA approval process to make
sure. Otherwise, we could just tell drug companies
“if you are pretty sure you’d pass anyway, we won’t
bother putting you through the approval process”
We don’t do that for good reason.
I agree with you on the memes both ways. Neither
approach are helping the situation. It should be a
discussion based upon the scientific merits of the
situation. Unfortunately both side love to poke at
the intelligence of those that don’t agree with
their decision.
There is no way to know this for sure, but I wonder
how many folks publicly shaming others for not
taking the vaccine know that it is not FDA approved?
Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, nor am
I suggesting it should have. But I don’t think
that those of us that decided to go ahead with the
vaccination get to make medical decisions for those
who aren’t comfortable with an experimental vaccine.
*From:* AF <[email protected]>
<mailto:[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Adam
Moffett
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM
*To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree
with most of your list.
On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote:
Here is what I find particularly challenging
about suggesting that folks who have chosen not
to take the vaccine are not that smart.
1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact
that this is not an FDA approved
medicine/vaccine. I took the Moderna
vaccine, the paperwork clearly stated
several facts. Among them are:
1. This is not FDA approved.
It has an emergency use authorization. FDA approval
takes a long time, but around 90% of the submissions
end up approved because they are pretty well tested
by the manufacturer before they apply. Anybody
applying for FDA approval already has a pretty good
idea whether it's going to go through or not.
Presumably people on a no-fly list don't routinely
show up at the airport expecting to board a plane.
Presumably people don't try to get a CDL if they
know they'll fail the drug test. Same idea.
2.
3. This “vaccine” has not been proven to
prevent the virus. While we likely all
agree that there is a very good
likelihood that this “vaccine” will help
prevent it, it is far from a proven fact.
99% of people dying of Covid right now are
un-vaccinated. We can split hairs and say maybe it
didn't prevent them from becoming infected, but it
clearly prevents them from dying.
4.
2. The argument is, “there should be no reason
to think this vaccine isn’t safe since
people aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”.
I've never heard such an argument.
3. Vaccines are a risk/reward type of medical
treatment. Every medicine you take has
some level of side effect. The vast
majority of medicines have such negligible
side effects, that they are considered
completely safe. The FDA approval process
exists to ensure we understand the potential
of serious side effects and drug interaction
issues. If you are 30 years old and folks
are saying you have to take this
experimental drug to prevent this incredibly
small chance of you becoming seriously ill
or dying, it seems like an intelligent thing
to say “I am not sure the risk of getting
seriously ill or dying from this disease
outweighs the risk of using an experimental
drug”. It used to be that people relied
upon a conversation with their doctor to
determine personal risk of disease and use
of a drug. Apparently we no longer do
that. We publicly shame people into using
experimental drugs.
4. Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have
a full understanding of drug interactions
with other medicines folks need to take.
It isn't some weird new chemical we just invented
this year.
5. We likely understand the very common
medicines, but, certainly not all. We have
FDA approval processes for good reason. If
for example, you were under 40 and were
taking seizure control medication, it would
be very fair to hold off on an experimental
drug until it is fully understood if the
vaccine might lessen the effectiveness of
the seizure control medication. An
incredibly low risk of serious illness or
death from the virus could turn into a good
chance of serious injury from seizure. As
far as I know data like that is certainly
not available yet.
6. Why do vaccinated people feel the need to
belittle those that have decided not to get
vaccinated by an experimental drug?
I don't know the answer to that. I'm not comfortable
with that behavior either. It goes both ways
though. Plenty of memes out there accusing people
of being dumb sheep for taking the vaccine.
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