I like this:
Contact trace your covid back to the unvaccinated person that
transmitted it. They get to pay for the healthcare/death.
Having a vax is safe harbor.
Tort law to the rescue!
Now we need some covid liability policies. Unvaxed people have to
have insurance. Just like if you wanna drive a car you gotta have
insurance because you are a hazard to everyone else on the road. You
wanna walk free either get vaxed or get the liability policy.
Now, how about random stops, or perhaps entry into large gatherings.
Show the shot card or proof of insurance.
The venue is gonna have to track where people are sitting so they can
help assign the blame. Maybe give all non vaxed a gps wrist strap
that gets tracked throughout the event.
Or, perhaps we can come up with some of nuclear backscatter detector
that will finger you by just scanning you. Immediately get to appear
before Judge Dredd. Or you get disintegrated on the spot.
*From:* Chuck McCown via AF
*Sent:* Monday, July 26, 2021 10:41 AM
*To:* [email protected]
*Cc:* Chuck McCown
*Subject:* [AFMUG] Fw: OT somewhat political
So, unvacinnated folk that get the virus and walk around for a few
days breathing on the general public are OK with you? Some are
asymptomatic, others are just not feeling too poorly to stay home
yet. But they are a living breathing biological warfare machine. And
they can just run free?
How about if they had anthrax or rabies or the plague? Doesn’t matter?
*From:* Dennis Burgess
*Sent:* Monday, July 26, 2021 6:00 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Cc:* Chuck McCown
*Subject:* RE: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
Or that other person can ware the condom since they are so afraid of
it, or maybe they should not be out in public?
*LTI-Full_175px*
*Dennis Burgess*
*
*Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
*Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
*Office*: 314-735-0270 Website: http://www.linktechs.net
<http://www.linktechs.net/>
Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com
<wlmailhtml:www.towercoverage.com>
Need MikroTik Cloud Management: https://cloud.linktechs.net
<https://cloud.linktechs.net>
*From:* AF <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 6:20 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected]>
*Cc:* Chuck McCown <[email protected]>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
AIDS was / Is 100% avoidable. COVID is like someone with AIDS
spraying you down with their precious bodily fluids by sneezing.
People have been prosecuted for infecting others with AIDS. Why not
COVID? If you don’t want the vax, fine but you need a full body condom
if you come within 100’ of another person.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, David Coudron
<[email protected]> wrote:
There are valid reasons for deciding to take this vaccine, the
shingles vaccine, the flu vaccine, or a myriad of other
medications. Each decision should be based on risk/reward of
that drug and the medical condition being treated. To think that
you know everyone’s medical situation better than they do doesn’t
seem very feasible and awfully presumptive. To call them selfish
for making a decision they believe is in their best medical
interest seems overly judgmental. Yes, there are people are
deciding not to take it simply because they think they shouldn’t
be forced to take a medical treatment against their will. You
may feel that we should force them to take the treatment for the
better good. I doubt you would feel the same about mandatory
castration of young men to curb overcrowding of the earth.
Obviously there is a line somewhere about forced treatment for the
greater good. I am not attempting to determine where that line
is, only suggesting that folks have valid medical reasons for not
deciding to take the vaccine and they shouldn’t be publicly shamed
for making that decision. It doesn’t seem that far fetched, but
I am learning I see things differently than some other folks. So
be it.
I love the argument that we have to get vaccinated, but we still
have to act like the vaccine doesn’t work in order to save the
human race. Seems like a disconnect there.
If we were really so worried about infecting others or causing
harm to others, we would avoid all other activities that create
risk for others. We’d never drive a car, much less have a beer
and get in a car. I doubt that very many of us on this list can
say that. We would never allow the sale of fatty foods. We
would force each and everyone to get to a body mass within our
accepted range. Keep in mind life is risky. We don’t need to do
stupid things, but being alive carries with it the risk of
dying. We are all much more likely to die of heart disease,
stroke related illness, or cancer than we are of Covid. Those
are just the facts. Many folks make small adjustments to reduce
the risk of those likely causes of mortality, but have long ago
passed on decisions to make big changes to eliminate the
possibility of those causes of death.
I have long ago decided not to live in constant fear of these
things. While I chose to be vaccinated, I respect the right of
folks to make the best choice for their situation. I also
respect the right of someone who is not in the best physical
condition to eat a steak. I realize that a drunk driver might
kill me some day, but I respect the right of individuals to go to
a bar and expect that most (but not all) are responsible enough
not to drink and drive when they have had too much.
Keep in mind that this virus would have never come to our country
if we never allowed anyone in or out of it. But we understand
that certain personal freedoms are worth the possibility of
catching a disease that might kill us. I have a tough time with
the mass hypochondria surrounding this situation.
Sorry, I am not meaning to make anyone mad, just trying to keep
perspective. I just don’t understand why folks get so bent out
of shape if they are already vaccinated. I guess they don’t
believe the vaccine will work because if it does, there is nothing
to worry about.
I wager that given Covid’s relation to influenza like viruses,
that it is with us permanently. We will have yearly updates to
the vaccination, but we’ll never be rid of it. Not because
people aren’t getting vaccinated, but because it will always
mutate ahead of the vaccine, just like the flu virus. Please don’t
take this as an argument to not work on vaccines, we absolutely
should as it will save lives. But as Carl pointed out below,
vaccines aren’t 100% effective……. 😊
I will lay a friendly wager down. Remember, we had a AIDS
epidemic several years ago. Did we force people to stop having
sex or many of the other high risk things that led to AIDS? Does
anyone even talk about AIDS anymore? 32 million people died of
AIDS and people still die from it. No one talks about it any
more. Covid will be the same way in 10 years. That is my bet.
Again, lots of stuff to poke holes in here I am sure. My only
original point was that there are valid reasons folks chose not to
get vaccinated. We can’t and shouldn’t know what they are, but
should respect their right to chose.
*From:* AF <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Carl Peterson
*Sent:* Friday, July3, 2021 4:30 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected]>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
No vaccination is 100% effective. From a public policy
perspective, you need to pull on the levers that work in order to
get R0 to be less than 1. We know that a good percentage of
people will follow a mask mandate. Even if most of that group is
vaccinated that lever will still do something since no vaccine is
100% effective and some number of that population is walking
around as symptom-free carriers at any given time.
Getting most people vaccinated would be the best way to lower R0,
but if someone is too self centered to care about their neighbors
or their country there isn't much you can do to make them care.
That lever isn't doing much these days. The issue here really is
about what is best for society vs what an individual thinks is
best for themselves. An individual's personal risk of having
serious Covid complications is pretty low so if they believe there
is some risk to the vaccine and don't account for externalities,
e.g. them infecting other people, then it's hard to convince them
to get vaccinated.
On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 4:05 PM Dennis Burgess
<[email protected]> wrote:
Why does someone who has made an informed choice not to get
vaxxed by a NON-FDA approved drug have not sit out in
timeout? This is a free society, if you are so scared, you
stay home. I will take my chances.
*<image001.png>*
*Dennis Burgess*
*
*Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
*Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
*Office*: 314-735-0270 Website: http://www.linktechs.net
<http://www.linktechs.net/>
Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com
<http://www.towercoverage.com>
Need MikroTik Cloud Management: https://cloud.linktechs.net
<https://cloud.linktechs.net>
*From:* AF <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Jan-GAMs
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 3:32 PM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
There is no having a sane discussion on this topic. This is
more like a whining child having an open temper-tantrum in
public. Un-vaxxed persons are a health hazard and attempting
to explain this to a child is a bit difficult. Those who
don't have a vaccine should not be allowed in public. Every
time a non-vaxxed person gets sick with Covid there is the
potential for a new variant even worse than the Delta
variant. Un-vaxxed persons should be quarrantined as they are
a health-hazard to everyone around them and to the public at
large.
On 7/23/21 1:11 PM, David Coudron wrote:
I know, we can all make our own decisions. However, I
don’t believe I have stated anything that varies from the
facts. I can send you the Moderna sheet I received with
my vaccine if you want to see that.
Your points about FDA approval are probably accurate,
however, why is not OK to say that I want to wait for the
approval? That doesn’t seem so unreasonable. We don’t let
folks on the plane based on the likelihood that those on
the no-fly list probably won’t show up to get on the plane
anyway. We still check each and every person to make
sure. Just like we do the FDA approval process to make
sure. Otherwise, we could just tell drug companies “if
you are pretty sure you’d pass anyway, we won’t bother
putting you through the approval process” We don’t do
that for good reason.
I agree with you on the memes both ways. Neither approach
are helping the situation. It should be a discussion
based upon the scientific merits of the situation.
Unfortunately both side love to poke at the intelligence
of those that don’t agree with their decision.
There is no way to know this for sure, but I wonder how
many folks publicly shaming others for not taking the
vaccine know that it is not FDA approved?
Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, nor am I
suggesting it should have. But I don’t think that those
of us that decided to go ahead with the vaccination get to
make medical decisions for those who aren’t comfortable
with an experimental vaccine.
*From:* AF mailto:[email protected] *On Behalf Of
*Adam Moffett
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree with
most of your list.
On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote:
Here is what I find particularly challenging about
suggesting that folks who have chosen not to take the
vaccine are not that smart.
1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact that
this is not an FDA approved medicine/vaccine. I
took the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork clearly
stated several facts. Among them are:
1. This is not FDA approved.
It has an emergency use authorization. FDA approval takes
a long time, but around 90% of the submissions end up
approved because they are pretty well tested by the
manufacturer before they apply. Anybody applying for FDA
approval already has a pretty good idea whether it's going
to go through or not. Presumably people on a no-fly list
don't routinely show up at the airport expecting to board
a plane. Presumably people don't try to get a CDL if they
know they'll fail the drug test. Same idea.
2.
3. This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent
the virus. While we likely all agree that
there is a very good likelihood that this
“vaccine” will help prevent it, it is far from
a proven fact.
99% of people dying of Covid right now are un-vaccinated.
We can split hairs and say maybe it didn't prevent them
from becoming infected, but it clearly prevents them from
dying.
4.
2. The argument is, “there should be no reason to
think this vaccine isn’t safe since people aren’t
dying from taking the vaccine”.
I've never heard such an argument.
3. Vaccines are a risk/reward type of medical
treatment. Every medicine you take has some level
of side effect. The vast majority of medicines
have such negligible side effects, that they are
considered completely safe. The FDA approval
process exists to ensure we understand the
potential of serious side effects and drug
interaction issues. If you are 30 years old and
folks are saying you have to take this
experimental drug to prevent this incredibly small
chance of you becoming seriously ill or dying, it
seems like an intelligent thing to say “I am not
sure the risk of getting seriously ill or dying
from this disease outweighs the risk of using an
experimental drug”. It used to be that people
relied upon a conversation with their doctor to
determine personal risk of disease and use of a
drug. Apparently we no longer do that. We
publicly shame people into using experimental drugs.
4. Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full
understanding of drug interactions with other
medicines folks need to take.
It isn't some weird new chemical we just invented this year.
5. We likely understand the very common medicines,
but, certainly not all. We have FDA approval
processes for good reason. If for example, you
were under 40 and were taking seizure control
medication, it would be very fair to hold off on
an experimental drug until it is fully understood
if the vaccine might lessen the effectiveness of
the seizure control medication. An incredibly
low risk of serious illness or death from the
virus could turn into a good chance of serious
injury from seizure. As far as I know data like
that is certainly not available yet.
6. Why do vaccinated people feel the need to belittle
those that have decided not to get vaccinated by
an experimental drug?
I don't know the answer to that. I'm not comfortable with
that behavior either. It goes both ways though. Plenty of
memes out there accusing people of being dumb sheep for
taking the vaccine.
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