There's a major difference - Typhoid Mary knew that she was a carrier.
Somebody dancing through a crowd with a spray bottle of anthrax is
intentionally trying to kill people.
An apparently healthy un-vaxxed person, taking reasonable
precautions is nothing like that.
Sure, somebody that knows they're sick (or even has reason to think
they might be) and goes out and slobbers all over the general public
is a similar situation, but nobody is defending that.
On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 11:42 AM Chuck McCown via AF
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
So, unvacinnated folk that get the virus and walk around for a
few days breathing on the general public are OK with you? Some
are asymptomatic, others are just not feeling too poorly to stay
home yet. But they are a living breathing biological warfare
machine. And they can just run free?
How about if they had anthrax or rabies or the plague? Doesn’t
matter?
*From:* Dennis Burgess
*Sent:* Monday, July 26, 2021 6:00 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Cc:* Chuck McCown
*Subject:* RE: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
Or that other person can ware the condom since they are so afraid
of it, or maybe they should not be out in public?
*LTI-Full_175px*
*Dennis Burgess*
*
*Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
*Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
*Office*: 314-735-0270 Website: http://www.linktechs.net
<http://www.linktechs.net/>
Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com
Need MikroTik Cloud Management: https://cloud.linktechs.net
*From:* AF <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown
via AF
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 6:20 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
*Cc:* Chuck McCown <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
AIDS was / Is 100% avoidable. COVID is like someone with AIDS
spraying you down with their precious bodily fluids by sneezing.
People have been prosecuted for infecting others with AIDS. Why
not COVID? If you don’t want the vax, fine but you need a full
body condom if you come within 100’ of another person.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, David Coudron
<[email protected]> wrote:
There are valid reasons for deciding to take this vaccine,
the shingles vaccine, the flu vaccine, or a myriad of other
medications. Each decision should be based on risk/reward
of that drug and the medical condition being treated. To
think that you know everyone’s medical situation better than
they do doesn’t seem very feasible and awfully presumptive.
To call them selfish for making a decision they believe is in
their best medical interest seems overly judgmental. Yes,
there are people are deciding not to take it simply because
they think they shouldn’t be forced to take a medical
treatment against their will. You may feel that we should
force them to take the treatment for the better good. I
doubt you would feel the same about mandatory castration of
young men to curb overcrowding of the earth. Obviously
there is a line somewhere about forced treatment for the
greater good. I am not attempting to determine where that
line is, only suggesting that folks have valid medical
reasons for not deciding to take the vaccine and they
shouldn’t be publicly shamed for making that decision. It
doesn’t seem that far fetched, but I am learning I see things
differently than some other folks. So be it.
I love the argument that we have to get vaccinated, but we
still have to act like the vaccine doesn’t work in order to
save the human race. Seems like a disconnect there.
If we were really so worried about infecting others or
causing harm to others, we would avoid all other activities
that create risk for others. We’d never drive a car, much
less have a beer and get in a car. I doubt that very many
of us on this list can say that. We would never allow the
sale of fatty foods. We would force each and everyone to get
to a body mass within our accepted range. Keep in mind life
is risky. We don’t need to do stupid things, but being alive
carries with it the risk of dying. We are all much more
likely to die of heart disease, stroke related illness, or
cancer than we are of Covid. Those are just the facts. Many
folks make small adjustments to reduce the risk of those
likely causes of mortality, but have long ago passed on
decisions to make big changes to eliminate the possibility of
those causes of death.
I have long ago decided not to live in constant fear of these
things. While I chose to be vaccinated, I respect the right
of folks to make the best choice for their situation. I
also respect the right of someone who is not in the best
physical condition to eat a steak. I realize that a drunk
driver might kill me some day, but I respect the right of
individuals to go to a bar and expect that most (but not all)
are responsible enough not to drink and drive when they have
had too much.
Keep in mind that this virus would have never come to our
country if we never allowed anyone in or out of it. But we
understand that certain personal freedoms are worth the
possibility of catching a disease that might kill us. I
have a tough time with the mass hypochondria surrounding this
situation.
Sorry, I am not meaning to make anyone mad, just trying to
keep perspective. I just don’t understand why folks get
so bent out of shape if they are already vaccinated. I
guess they don’t believe the vaccine will work because if it
does, there is nothing to worry about.
I wager that given Covid’s relation to influenza like
viruses, that it is with us permanently. We will have
yearly updates to the vaccination, but we’ll never be rid of
it. Not because people aren’t getting vaccinated, but
because it will always mutate ahead of the vaccine, just like
the flu virus. Please don’t take this as an argument to not
work on vaccines, we absolutely should as it will save
lives. But as Carl pointed out below, vaccines aren’t 100%
effective……. 😊
I will lay a friendly wager down. Remember, we had a AIDS
epidemic several years ago. Did we force people to stop
having sex or many of the other high risk things that led to
AIDS? Does anyone even talk about AIDS anymore? 32
million people died of AIDS and people still die from it.
No one talks about it any more. Covid will be the same way
in 10 years. That is my bet.
Again, lots of stuff to poke holes in here I am sure. My
only original point was that there are valid reasons folks
chose not to get vaccinated. We can’t and shouldn’t know
what they are, but should respect their right to chose.
*From:* AF <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Carl
Peterson
*Sent:* Friday, July3, 2021 4:30 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected]>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
No vaccination is 100% effective. From a public policy
perspective, you need to pull on the levers that work in
order to get R0 to be less than 1. We know that a good
percentage of people will follow a mask mandate. Even if
most of that group is vaccinated that lever will still do
something since no vaccine is 100% effective and some number
of that population is walking around as symptom-free carriers
at any given time.
Getting most people vaccinated would be the best way to lower
R0, but if someone is too self centered to care about their
neighbors or their country there isn't much you can do to
make them care. That lever isn't doing much these days. The
issue here really is about what is best for society vs what
an individual thinks is best for themselves. An individual's
personal risk of having serious Covid complications is pretty
low so if they believe there is some risk to the vaccine and
don't account for externalities, e.g. them infecting other
people, then it's hard to convince them to get vaccinated.
On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 4:05 PM Dennis Burgess
<[email protected]> wrote:
Why does someone who has made an informed choice not to
get vaxxed by a NON-FDA approved drug have not sit out in
timeout? This is a free society, if you are so scared,
you stay home. I will take my chances.
*<image001.png>*
*Dennis Burgess*
*
*Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
*Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
*Office*: 314-735-0270 Website: http://www.linktechs.net
<http://www.linktechs.net/>
Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com
<http://www.towercoverage.com>
Need MikroTik Cloud Management: https://cloud.linktechs.net
*From:* AF <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of
*Jan-GAMs
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 3:32 PM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
There is no having a sane discussion on this topic. This
is more like a whining child having an open
temper-tantrum in public. Un-vaxxed persons are a health
hazard and attempting to explain this to a child is a bit
difficult. Those who don't have a vaccine should not be
allowed in public. Every time a non-vaxxed person gets
sick with Covid there is the potential for a new variant
even worse than the Delta variant. Un-vaxxed persons
should be quarrantined as they are a health-hazard to
everyone around them and to the public at large.
On 7/23/21 1:11 PM, David Coudron wrote:
I know, we can all make our own decisions. However,
I don’t believe I have stated anything that varies
from the facts. I can send you the Moderna sheet I
received with my vaccine if you want to see that.
Your points about FDA approval are probably accurate,
however, why is not OK to say that I want to wait for
the approval? That doesn’t seem so unreasonable.
We don’t let folks on the plane based on the
likelihood that those on the no-fly list probably
won’t show up to get on the plane anyway. We still
check each and every person to make sure. Just like
we do the FDA approval process to make sure.
Otherwise, we could just tell drug companies “if you
are pretty sure you’d pass anyway, we won’t bother
putting you through the approval process” We don’t
do that for good reason.
I agree with you on the memes both ways. Neither
approach are helping the situation. It should be a
discussion based upon the scientific merits of the
situation. Unfortunately both side love to poke at
the intelligence of those that don’t agree with their
decision.
There is no way to know this for sure, but I wonder
how many folks publicly shaming others for not taking
the vaccine know that it is not FDA approved?
Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, nor am I
suggesting it should have. But I don’t think that
those of us that decided to go ahead with the
vaccination get to make medical decisions for those
who aren’t comfortable with an experimental vaccine.
*From:* AF mailto:[email protected] *On Behalf
Of *Adam Moffett
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree
with most of your list.
On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote:
Here is what I find particularly challenging
about suggesting that folks who have chosen not
to take the vaccine are not that smart.
1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact
that this is not an FDA approved
medicine/vaccine. I took the Moderna
vaccine, the paperwork clearly stated several
facts. Among them are:
1. This is not FDA approved.
It has an emergency use authorization. FDA approval
takes a long time, but around 90% of the submissions
end up approved because they are pretty well tested
by the manufacturer before they apply. Anybody
applying for FDA approval already has a pretty good
idea whether it's going to go through or not.
Presumably people on a no-fly list don't routinely
show up at the airport expecting to board a plane.
Presumably people don't try to get a CDL if they know
they'll fail the drug test. Same idea.
2.
3. This “vaccine” has not been proven to
prevent the virus. While we likely all
agree that there is a very good
likelihood that this “vaccine” will help
prevent it, it is far from a proven fact.
99% of people dying of Covid right now are
un-vaccinated. We can split hairs and say maybe it
didn't prevent them from becoming infected, but it
clearly prevents them from dying.
4.
2. The argument is, “there should be no reason
to think this vaccine isn’t safe since people
aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”.
I've never heard such an argument.
3. Vaccines are a risk/reward type of medical
treatment. Every medicine you take has some
level of side effect. The vast majority of
medicines have such negligible side effects,
that they are considered completely safe.
The FDA approval process exists to ensure we
understand the potential of serious side
effects and drug interaction issues. If you
are 30 years old and folks are saying you
have to take this experimental drug to
prevent this incredibly small chance of you
becoming seriously ill or dying, it seems
like an intelligent thing to say “I am not
sure the risk of getting seriously ill or
dying from this disease outweighs the risk of
using an experimental drug”. It used to be
that people relied upon a conversation with
their doctor to determine personal risk of
disease and use of a drug. Apparently we no
longer do that. We publicly shame people
into using experimental drugs.
4. Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a
full understanding of drug interactions with
other medicines folks need to take.
It isn't some weird new chemical we just invented
this year.
5. We likely understand the very common
medicines, but, certainly not all. We have
FDA approval processes for good reason. If
for example, you were under 40 and were
taking seizure control medication, it would
be very fair to hold off on an experimental
drug until it is fully understood if the
vaccine might lessen the effectiveness of the
seizure control medication. An incredibly
low risk of serious illness or death from the
virus could turn into a good chance of
serious injury from seizure. As far as I know
data like that is certainly not available yet.
6. Why do vaccinated people feel the need to
belittle those that have decided not to get
vaccinated by an experimental drug?
I don't know the answer to that. I'm not comfortable
with that behavior either. It goes both ways
though. Plenty of memes out there accusing people of
being dumb sheep for taking the vaccine.
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