I thought about whether or not to reply because what seemed like a pointing out that it might be OK to respect the decision not to take this vaccine right now turned into a pretty hot topic and that wasn’t the intent. The point wasn’t to advocate for no vaccination, ever, but to point out that we should respect someone’s decision to hold off for a bit. Remember when the polio vaccine was messed up and early vaccinees (is that a word?) got the live virus by mistake and got sick. Folks that weren’t first on that list were probably feeling pretty lucky. Not suggesting that is happening now, but that there might be valid reasons to slow down the immense pressure and negative treatment of others for making a decision based their perception of the risk/reward of vaccination at this time. A couple of things that might not make it such a black and white decision for some:
Here are the CDC stats for recent deaths. I would be significantly more worried about contracting and dying from pneumonia at this point. How many of you in the age range for the pneumonia vaccine take the vaccine? Did you even know there was one? https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/fluview/mortality.html There has been a lot of discussion about herd immunity and why it is so important that everyone gets vaccinated right away. Here is the data from a 100% vaccinated country (by March of this year) of Gibraltar: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/gibraltar/ 100% vaccination does not equal 100% protection in the case of every disease. Pretty good spike of cases long after 100% vaccination was achieved. Once we get to high vaccination rates here, we’ll probably see the same. This virus doesn’t appear to be like small pox, it seems to mutate more like influenza. Hard to say for sure, but this disease will likely fall into the influenza, pneumonia category where we’ll get updated vaccines every year. The CDC looks like they are already tracking it that way. That will give folks lots of chances to yell at the idiots that chose to wait for FDA approval (which looks like it might be here as soon as August) 😊 so no need to waste all those words now. I know this disease has been tough on the whole country, but we used to be a pretty light-hearted group on this email list. It wasn’t my intent to minimize the disease’s impact (the CDC graph above shows have bad it is/was). This list had been very good about looking at facts and not resorting to demonizing folks. It would be too bad if that is no longer the case. My take away from the CDC information and other information being reported at the current time is this: We are seeing the tailoff of this disease, which is incredibly encouraging. We will see spikes again. Most importantly, the loss of life is very tragic and I am not attempting to minimize that. But, this isn’t small pox, we are (unfortunately) not likely to see 100% eradication, but rather, see annual boosters and a continued presence of the disease past the next couple of years. Hopefully that is not the case, but it will likely end up permanently on the mortality list somewhere between influenza and pneumonia despite our best efforts. Again, could be way off base on this (my handwritten Dr’s degree is getting pretty old 😊) Regards, From: AF <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF Sent: Monday, July 26, 2021 12:34 PM To: [email protected] Cc: Chuck McCown <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fw: OT somewhat political I have developed some special glasses that detect the change of polarization of light reflected off of vaccinated people. It will be like the walking dead. Being slightly more serious, here is a quote from SCOTUS: At question, then, was whether the “right to refuse vaccination” was among those protected personal liberties. Justice John Marshall Harlan acknowledged the fundamental importance of personal freedom, but also recognized that “the rights of the individual in respect of his liberty may at times, under the pressure of great dangers, be subjected to such restraint, to be enforced by reasonable regulations, as the safety of the general public may demand.” This was directly related to anti smallpox vaxxers in 1905. From: Robert Sent: Monday, July 26, 2021 11:26 AM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fw: OT somewhat political Um, kinda wonder what the percentage of unvaxxed is that are walking around unmasked.. A shudder to think it's probably near 100%... On 7/26/21 9:56 AM, Mathew Howard wrote: There's a major difference - Typhoid Mary knew that she was a carrier. Somebody dancing through a crowd with a spray bottle of anthrax is intentionally trying to kill people. An apparently healthy un-vaxxed person, taking reasonable precautions is nothing like that. Sure, somebody that knows they're sick (or even has reason to think they might be) and goes out and slobbers all over the general public is a similar situation, but nobody is defending that. On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 11:42 AM Chuck McCown via AF <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: So, unvacinnated folk that get the virus and walk around for a few days breathing on the general public are OK with you? Some are asymptomatic, others are just not feeling too poorly to stay home yet. But they are a living breathing biological warfare machine. And they can just run free? How about if they had anthrax or rabies or the plague? Doesn’t matter? From: Dennis Burgess Sent: Monday, July 26, 2021 6:00 AM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group Cc: Chuck McCown Subject: RE: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political Or that other person can ware the condom since they are so afraid of it, or maybe they should not be out in public? [LTI-Full_175px] Dennis Burgess Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition” Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services Office: 314-735-0270 Website: http://www.linktechs.net<http://www.linktechs.net/> Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com<http://www.towercoverage.com> Need MikroTik Cloud Management: https://cloud.linktechs.net From: AF <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 6:20 PM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Cc: Chuck McCown <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political AIDS was / Is 100% avoidable. COVID is like someone with AIDS spraying you down with their precious bodily fluids by sneezing. People have been prosecuted for infecting others with AIDS. Why not COVID? If you don’t want the vax, fine but you need a full body condom if you come within 100’ of another person. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, David Coudron <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: There are valid reasons for deciding to take this vaccine, the shingles vaccine, the flu vaccine, or a myriad of other medications. Each decision should be based on risk/reward of that drug and the medical condition being treated. To think that you know everyone’s medical situation better than they do doesn’t seem very feasible and awfully presumptive. To call them selfish for making a decision they believe is in their best medical interest seems overly judgmental. Yes, there are people are deciding not to take it simply because they think they shouldn’t be forced to take a medical treatment against their will. You may feel that we should force them to take the treatment for the better good. I doubt you would feel the same about mandatory castration of young men to curb overcrowding of the earth. Obviously there is a line somewhere about forced treatment for the greater good. I am not attempting to determine where that line is, only suggesting that folks have valid medical reasons for not deciding to take the vaccine and they shouldn’t be publicly shamed for making that decision. It doesn’t seem that far fetched, but I am learning I see things differently than some other folks. So be it. I love the argument that we have to get vaccinated, but we still have to act like the vaccine doesn’t work in order to save the human race. Seems like a disconnect there. If we were really so worried about infecting others or causing harm to others, we would avoid all other activities that create risk for others. We’d never drive a car, much less have a beer and get in a car. I doubt that very many of us on this list can say that. We would never allow the sale of fatty foods. We would force each and everyone to get to a body mass within our accepted range. Keep in mind life is risky. We don’t need to do stupid things, but being alive carries with it the risk of dying. We are all much more likely to die of heart disease, stroke related illness, or cancer than we are of Covid. Those are just the facts. Many folks make small adjustments to reduce the risk of those likely causes of mortality, but have long ago passed on decisions to make big changes to eliminate the possibility of those causes of death. I have long ago decided not to live in constant fear of these things. While I chose to be vaccinated, I respect the right of folks to make the best choice for their situation. I also respect the right of someone who is not in the best physical condition to eat a steak. I realize that a drunk driver might kill me some day, but I respect the right of individuals to go to a bar and expect that most (but not all) are responsible enough not to drink and drive when they have had too much. Keep in mind that this virus would have never come to our country if we never allowed anyone in or out of it. But we understand that certain personal freedoms are worth the possibility of catching a disease that might kill us. I have a tough time with the mass hypochondria surrounding this situation. Sorry, I am not meaning to make anyone mad, just trying to keep perspective. I just don’t understand why folks get so bent out of shape if they are already vaccinated. I guess they don’t believe the vaccine will work because if it does, there is nothing to worry about. I wager that given Covid’s relation to influenza like viruses, that it is with us permanently. We will have yearly updates to the vaccination, but we’ll never be rid of it. Not because people aren’t getting vaccinated, but because it will always mutate ahead of the vaccine, just like the flu virus. Please don’t take this as an argument to not work on vaccines, we absolutely should as it will save lives. But as Carl pointed out below, vaccines aren’t 100% effective……. 😊 I will lay a friendly wager down. Remember, we had a AIDS epidemic several years ago. Did we force people to stop having sex or many of the other high risk things that led to AIDS? Does anyone even talk about AIDS anymore? 32 million people died of AIDS and people still die from it. No one talks about it any more. Covid will be the same way in 10 years. That is my bet. Again, lots of stuff to poke holes in here I am sure. My only original point was that there are valid reasons folks chose not to get vaccinated. We can’t and shouldn’t know what they are, but should respect their right to chose. From: AF <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> On Behalf Of Carl Peterson Sent: Friday, July3, 2021 4:30 PM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political No vaccination is 100% effective. From a public policy perspective, you need to pull on the levers that work in order to get R0 to be less than 1. We know that a good percentage of people will follow a mask mandate. Even if most of that group is vaccinated that lever will still do something since no vaccine is 100% effective and some number of that population is walking around as symptom-free carriers at any given time. Getting most people vaccinated would be the best way to lower R0, but if someone is too self centered to care about their neighbors or their country there isn't much you can do to make them care. That lever isn't doing much these days. The issue here really is about what is best for society vs what an individual thinks is best for themselves. An individual's personal risk of having serious Covid complications is pretty low so if they believe there is some risk to the vaccine and don't account for externalities, e.g. them infecting other people, then it's hard to convince them to get vaccinated. On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 4:05 PM Dennis Burgess <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Why does someone who has made an informed choice not to get vaxxed by a NON-FDA approved drug have not sit out in timeout? This is a free society, if you are so scared, you stay home. I will take my chances. <image001.png> Dennis Burgess Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition” Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services Office: 314-735-0270 Website: http://www.linktechs.net<http://www.linktechs.net/> Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com<http://www.towercoverage.com> Need MikroTik Cloud Management: https://cloud.linktechs.net From: AF <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> On Behalf Of Jan-GAMs Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 3:32 PM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political There is no having a sane discussion on this topic. This is more like a whining child having an open temper-tantrum in public. Un-vaxxed persons are a health hazard and attempting to explain this to a child is a bit difficult. Those who don't have a vaccine should not be allowed in public. Every time a non-vaxxed person gets sick with Covid there is the potential for a new variant even worse than the Delta variant. Un-vaxxed persons should be quarrantined as they are a health-hazard to everyone around them and to the public at large. On 7/23/21 1:11 PM, David Coudron wrote: I know, we can all make our own decisions. However, I don’t believe I have stated anything that varies from the facts. I can send you the Moderna sheet I received with my vaccine if you want to see that. Your points about FDA approval are probably accurate, however, why is not OK to say that I want to wait for the approval? That doesn’t seem so unreasonable. We don’t let folks on the plane based on the likelihood that those on the no-fly list probably won’t show up to get on the plane anyway. We still check each and every person to make sure. Just like we do the FDA approval process to make sure. Otherwise, we could just tell drug companies “if you are pretty sure you’d pass anyway, we won’t bother putting you through the approval process” We don’t do that for good reason. I agree with you on the memes both ways. Neither approach are helping the situation. It should be a discussion based upon the scientific merits of the situation. Unfortunately both side love to poke at the intelligence of those that don’t agree with their decision. There is no way to know this for sure, but I wonder how many folks publicly shaming others for not taking the vaccine know that it is not FDA approved? Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, nor am I suggesting it should have. But I don’t think that those of us that decided to go ahead with the vaccination get to make medical decisions for those who aren’t comfortable with an experimental vaccine. From: AF mailto:[email protected] On Behalf Of Adam Moffett Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree with most of your list. On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote: Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that folks who have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart. 1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an FDA approved medicine/vaccine. I took the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork clearly stated several facts. Among them are: * This is not FDA approved. It has an emergency use authorization. FDA approval takes a long time, but around 90% of the submissions end up approved because they are pretty well tested by the manufacturer before they apply. Anybody applying for FDA approval already has a pretty good idea whether it's going to go through or not. Presumably people on a no-fly list don't routinely show up at the airport expecting to board a plane. Presumably people don't try to get a CDL if they know they'll fail the drug test. Same idea. * * This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus. While we likely all agree that there is a very good likelihood that this “vaccine” will help prevent it, it is far from a proven fact. 99% of people dying of Covid right now are un-vaccinated. We can split hairs and say maybe it didn't prevent them from becoming infected, but it clearly prevents them from dying. * 1. The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this vaccine isn’t safe since people aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”. I've never heard such an argument. 1. Vaccines are a risk/reward type of medical treatment. Every medicine you take has some level of side effect. The vast majority of medicines have such negligible side effects, that they are considered completely safe. The FDA approval process exists to ensure we understand the potential of serious side effects and drug interaction issues. If you are 30 years old and folks are saying you have to take this experimental drug to prevent this incredibly small chance of you becoming seriously ill or dying, it seems like an intelligent thing to say “I am not sure the risk of getting seriously ill or dying from this disease outweighs the risk of using an experimental drug”. It used to be that people relied upon a conversation with their doctor to determine personal risk of disease and use of a drug. Apparently we no longer do that. We publicly shame people into using experimental drugs. 1. Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full understanding of drug interactions with other medicines folks need to take. It isn't some weird new chemical we just invented this year. 1. We likely understand the very common medicines, but, certainly not all. We have FDA approval processes for good reason. If for example, you were under 40 and were taking seizure control medication, it would be very fair to hold off on an experimental drug until it is fully understood if the vaccine might lessen the effectiveness of the seizure control medication. An incredibly low risk of serious illness or death from the virus could turn into a good chance of serious injury from seizure. As far as I know data like that is certainly not available yet. 1. Why do vaccinated people feel the need to belittle those that have decided not to get vaccinated by an experimental drug? I don't know the answer to that. I'm not comfortable with that behavior either. It goes both ways though. Plenty of memes out there accusing people of being dumb sheep for taking the vaccine. -- AF mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- -- AF mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com ________________________________ -- AF mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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