Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant

Thu, 04 Jan 2024 10:58:29 -0800

Not all lithium is the same... Tesla has careful temperature controls to manage their packs. And are subject to thermal runaway. LFP batteries ( I can't say completely ) are not so subject to thermal runaway. Running them inside a house is much safer than any other Lithium chemistry.
I have a 24v 400 AH pack running power for my server rack, which all run with 24v power supplies. Inside my office. Not worried much about it as long as nobody shorts it out behind the fuses. 


Other chemistries are what make all the news, such as those in electric 
bikes, scooters, hoverboards, specially when someone leaves them on a 
charger in a garage when the temperatures get out of control and the BMS 
doesn't have any temperature controls on charging.



When you look at LFP batteries, unless the environment is well under 
control, you need to make sure that the battery has both high and LOW 
temperature protection.  Your shelter gets below 32 degrees because the 
power went off, the batteries go below freezing and the power comes back 
on without the shelter warming up and the charger goes on.   Your 
batteries will be toast...



On 1/4/24 09:12, Ken Hohhof wrote:

I know lead acid batteries have their safety issues, what about lithium?


With the Tesla Megapacks, I think fire departments just let them burn 
themselves out and flood adjacent ones with water to keep the fire from 
spreading.  Are there any building code restrictions against putting 
them in office buildings or data centers?  In general I would assume a 
stationary battery is less likely to catch fire compared to a Tesla car 
which can hit other objects while going 100 mph.


*From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF
*Sent:* Thursday, January 4, 2024 11:04 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com>
*Cc:* ch...@go-mtc.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant


Just the joy of handling lighter batts make lithium well worth it.  Not 
to mention all the other positive attributes.


*From:*castarritt

*Sent:*Thursday, January 4, 2024 9:27 AM

*To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant


I've also thought about trying just some basic Meanwell AC/DC supplies 
with LFP packs instead of a fancy ICT or other charger.  As long as I am 
using a power supply that will sag voltage instead of trip offline when 
max current is reached, the max current doesn't exceed the LFP pack's 
rated charge current, and I can set the supply's voltage to the 
appropriate value, I don't see why I need anything more.  The LFP pack's 
BMS already has LVD, and we aren't using fancy multi stage charge 
profiles with boost voltage on lithium packs.  Am I missing something 
here?  So far, bossman has preferred just playing it safe and paying for 
the ICT shelves we know work, so I haven't got to try it yet.



On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 10:17 AM castarritt <castarr...@gmail.com 
<mailto:castarr...@gmail.com>> wrote:


    We also use ICT and have been running them with both ISP Supplies
    and Power Storage Solutions LFP packs without any problems.  The
    only downside is that the ICT shelf can't read the state of charge

    or give your an estimated runtime remaining with lithium batteries. 
    I understand they won't have a super accurate reading on those

    parameters without communicating with the BMS, but I wish they could
    at least calculate AH in and out vs set AH capacity to give a rough
    estimate.

    On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 9:49 AM Gino A. Villarini <g...@aeronetpr.com
    <mailto:g...@aeronetpr.com>> wrote:

        We are having great success with signature solar units and ICT
        rectifiers.

        <https://aeronetpr.com/>

                

        *Gino Villarini*
        Founder / President
        @GVillarini
        787.273.4143 |

        <https://www.inc.com/profile/aeronet>

                

        <https://www.facebook.com/aeronetpr>

                

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        *From: *AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com
        <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> on behalf of Mark - Myakka
        Technologies <m...@mailmt.com <mailto:m...@mailmt.com>>
        *Date: *Thursday, January 4, 2024 at 11:38 AM
        *To: *AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com
        <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
        *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant

        I'm starting to get flashbacks for the last time I did this.  It
        wasn't a pleasant experience.  Felt I was oversold un-needed
        over priced options.  Trying to be more careful this time.

        Looking at the LifePO4 stuff and finding a bunch of rack mount
        batteries, but they all seem to be China made.  Can anyone
        recommend a brand they are using.  Also, can't find any rack
        mount chargers to to charge these guys.  Has anyone here
        actually setup a LifePO4 plant.  I may have to stay with the
        Lead Acid stuff, rather not be doing a DIY system or be on the
        bleeding edge.


        --
        Best regards,
        Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com <mailto:m...@mailmt.com>

        Myakka Communications
        
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        ------

        Wednesday, January 3, 2024, 8:02:33 PM, you wrote:

        PKvA> Something to think about is that LiFePO4 is good to 100%
        DOD, whereas we
        PKvA> should all be keeping lead-acids above 50% DOD if we want
        lifespan.. So
        PKvA> 460Ah lifepo4 = 920Ah lead-acid in my mind..

        PKvA> Peter Kranz
        PKvA>
        
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        PKvA> -----Original Message-----
        PKvA> From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com
        <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
        PKvA> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2024 4:57 PM
        PKvA> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' <af@af.afmug.com
        <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
        PKvA> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant

        PKvA> Of course the algorithms will be showing us all ads for
        LiFePO4 batts now.
        PKvA> I got one the other day for this one:
        PKvA>
        
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.epochbatteries.com%2Fproducts%2F12v-460ah-lifepo4-battery-ip67-heate&data=05%7C02%7Cgav%40aeronetpr.com%7C3433113bdfe540761c1b08dc0d3b2785%7C786321c8ea74460e81c62d3479dd1728%7C0%7C0%7C638399794931390821%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=PKVNWn62PB%2Fp2ghr%2FCJDFp%2B9lKmlqyHk19SiqbLWBNI%3D&reserved=0
 <https://www.epochbatteries.com/products/12v-460ah-lifepo4-battery-ip67-heate>
        PKvA> d-bluetooth-victron-comms

        PKvA> 12V 460Ah in an 8D size.  What some people call a "truck
        battery".  That's a
        PKvA> lot of Ah.  We have some 10+ year old old 8D AGMs I think
        they are rated 225
        PKvA> Ah.  Heavy suckers.  Just hauling them to the recycler at
        EOL is a chore.


        PKvA> -----Original Message-----
        PKvA> From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com
        <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of Peter Kranz via AF
        PKvA> Sent: Wednesday, January 3, 2024 5:31 PM
        PKvA> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' <af@af.afmug.com
        <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
        PKvA> Cc: Peter Kranz <pkr...@unwiredltd.com
        <mailto:pkr...@unwiredltd.com>>
        PKvA> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant

        PKvA> Yes you poll each unit. Each battery in the string has a
        Battery ID set by
        PKvA> dip switches. If you have a compatible inverter/charger it
        polls each
        PKvA> battery to pull data points of interest. Take a look at
        this battery, it
        PKvA> supports CANBUS, RS-485, and chaining batteries with
        battery ID's set by dip
        PKvA> switch.

        PKvA>
        
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 <https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-ll-s-48v-100ah-server-rack-battery/>

        PKvA> Peter Kranz
        PKvA>
        
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        PKvA> -----Original Message-----
        PKvA> From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com
        <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
        PKvA> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2024 2:57 PM
        PKvA> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' <af@af.afmug.com
        <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
        PKvA> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant

        PKvA> It's kind of an awkward situation.  Suppose you have 4
        batteries total, each
        PKvA> with their own internal BMS.  Do you want to monitor each
        battery?  Maybe.
        PKvA> My first impression is no.  But perhaps knowing that
        battery #3 has a
        PKvA> problem would be a good thing, like your car telling you
        all the tires are
        PKvA> at 34 psi except front right is at 26 psi.  Chuck's
        forklift probably just
        PKvA> has one battery (and no SNMP).

        PKvA> -----Original Message-----
        PKvA> From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com
        <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of Bill Prince
        PKvA> Sent: Wednesday, January 3, 2024 4:42 PM
        PKvA> To: af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
        PKvA> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant

        PKvA> Somebody could make a bluetooth to SNMP adapter/converter
        or something.
        PKvA> Nah, that would be too hard.


        PKvA> bp
        PKvA> <part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com>

        PKvA> On 1/3/2024 2:37 PM, Peter Kranz via AF wrote:
        >> There are rack mount LiFePO4 batteries with other options than 
Bluetooth.

        >> RS232, RS485, and HTTP/SNMP are available with LiFEPO4 batteries built 
        >> in BMS systems.. The HTTP/SNMP ones are the hardest to find, pretty 
        >> much all support RS232/CANBUS. Some inverter/rectifier shelf vendors 
        >> now support

        >> RS485 monitoring of your battery strings natively.
        >>
        >> Peter Kranz
        >> 
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        >> Desk: 510-868-1614 x100
        >> Mobile: 510-207-0000
        >> pkr...@unwiredltd.com <mailto:pkr...@unwiredltd.com>
        >>
        >> -----Original Message-----
        >> From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> 
On
        Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
        >> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2024 12:21 PM
        >> To: af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
        >> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant
        >>
        >> Conservatism and institutional momentum, well said. Same here.
        >>

        >> One issue apparently is can't charge them below 0 degrees C. But I'm 
        >> seeing ads claiming internal heaters and temperature controls. Can't 
        >> speak from experience, I just put in a bunch more AGMs.

        >>

        >> I also see from specs a lot about Bluetooth. I'm used to lots of 
        >> controls and stats via web and SNMP from some of the high end charge 
        >> controllers like Alpha, Eltek, ICT. How do you access the battery 
        >> control module at a remote site if it's Bluetooth? Or is that just for

        PKvA> initial commissioning?
        >>
        >> ---- Original Message ----
        >> From: dmmoff...@gmail.com <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>
        >> Sent: 1/3/2024 1:25:16 PM
        >> To: "'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'" <af@af.afmug.com 
<mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
        >> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant
        >>

        >> We're still building with VRLA batteries...but that's just the 
        >> combination of conservatism and institutional momentum.  I'd look

        PKvA> seriously at LiFePo4.

        >> For compatibility with existing rectifiers you'd look for battery 
        >> packs with a charge controller and management built in.  You can then 
        >> disable the temperature comp, equalization, or whatever other 
        >> smart/fancy stuff the rectifier would do and just let it serve as a 
        >> power supply and distribution device.

        >>

        >> There's a devil on my shoulder telling me that with Lithium drop in 
        >> replacements with integrated controllers I can eliminate the rectifier 
        >> and just get a beefy 48V power supply and a PDU.  But there's that 
        >> institutional momentum thing again.

        >>
        >> -Adam
        >>
        >>
        >> -----Original Message-----
        >> From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> 
On
        Behalf Of Mark - Myakka
        >> Technologies
        >> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2024 1:45 PM
        >> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com 
<mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
        >> Subject: [AFMUG] -48v power plant
        >>
        >> Happy New Year
        >>

        >> I need to build a new -48v power plant.  Last one I did was about 7 
        >> years ago.  I know things have changed.  Any recommendations on

        PKvA> manufacturers?
        >> What are thoughts about LiFePO batteries vs the standard telcomm
        PKvA> batteries?
        >>
        >>
        >> --
        >>
        >> Thanks,
        >>   Mark                          mailto:m...@mailmt.com 
<mailto:m...@mailmt.com>
        >>
        >> Myakka Communications
        >> 
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