I'm certain this is happening and there is nothing that can be done
because its a recovery fee...
On 5/26/26 12:45 PM, TJ Trout wrote:
Many carriers will only sell intrastate ptp circuits under a
interstate agreements which they will collect usf fees on (and maybe
not remit them forward?)
On Tue, May 26, 2026, 10:26 AM Adam Moffett <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
I get it. It's like when you pay a fee to apply for a permit.
It's "not a tax" in the sense that the legislature doesn't levy it
and doesn't control the money. Chuck is obviously right that if
you dialed a phone number then the call touched the phone system
/at least/ for a database lookup.
I also get that when we pay money to the government it doesn't
make any practical difference whether they call it a "tax" or a
"fee". The money is gone and you didn't truly have a choice in
the matter. Never dialing phone numbers is not a realistic
option, not unless you're a hermit or otherwise don't participate
in society.
What is the justification for charging USF on Interstate
point-to-point anyway? Is it like, "It /could /carry VoIP
traffic, so we're just going to assume it does"? I feel like
someone who uses a lot of point-to-point strictly for purposes
unrelated to internet or telephone traffic could sue for damages.
They'd have to pay a lot of USF fees to make that worth the
trouble though.
-Adam
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* AF <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> on behalf of Chuck
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
*Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2026 4:47 PM
*To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
*Cc:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] USF not a tax! IMO should die asap
Be different if ISPs could draw from the fund based upon in your
revenue requirement. I promise you would love it. Gravy train.
Sent from my iPhone
On May 21, 2026, at 9:37 AM, Dan P via AF <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
I am all for that, but for the love of god please don’t put
it in the USF light money on fire fund, put it into Fusion
power research, or other alt energy funds.
*From:* AF <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> *On Behalf Of *Ken Hohhof
*Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2026 9:31 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] USF not a tax! IMO should die asap
Tax AI.
*From:* AF <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> *On Behalf Of *Dan P via AF
*Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2026 10:22 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
*Cc:* Dan P <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] USF not a tax! IMO should die asap
Dear god, imagine hitting datacenter services, everything
ISP related? it would be one of the biggest money slush funds
out there
*From:* AF <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> *On Behalf Of *Ken Hohhof
*Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2026 9:18 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] USF not a tax! IMO should die asap
Every year there is talk of expanding the contribution base,
i.e. making ISPs pay into USF. So be careful what you wish for.
*From:* AF <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> *On Behalf Of *Dan P via AF
*Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2026 10:06 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
*Cc:* Dan P <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] USF not a tax! IMO should die asap
The few calls I take are likely never touching the PSTN, to be
honest I hate any phone calls, and from what I can see
current generation also is low phone usage or any usage of
PSTN (cell to cell on same carrier likely would never touch
it, discord, teams, google chat, etc.
But the point is, p2p data links are not PSTN, yet massive
amount of USF tax gets pulled on them, yet seeing how
mismanaged the program is just pissed me off.
*From:* [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
*Sent:* Wednesday, May 20, 2026 4:26 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
*Cc:* Dan P <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
*Subject:* Re: USF not a tax! IMO should die asap
To offer a probably glib response:
Don't want to use the USF, do not dial PSTN phone numbers.
That is the link. Doesn't matter if you use VOIP, if you use
that phone number the PSTN is involved on some level.
There are ways to talk and communicate without a phone
number. Like a Facebook phone call.
<https://www.google.com/maps/search/8401+N+Commerce+Dr+%0D%0A+Lake+Point,+Utah+84074?entry=gmail&source=g>Best
Regards,
Chuck McCown
McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
<https://www.google.com/maps/search/8401+N+Commerce+Dr+%0D%0A+Lake+Point,+Utah+84074?entry=gmail&source=g>
Lake Point, Utah 84074
<https://www.google.com/maps/search/8401+N+Commerce+Dr+%0D%0A+Lake+Point,+Utah+84074?entry=gmail&source=g>
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com <http://www.mccowntech.com/>
www.microtrench.pro <http://www.microtrench.pro/>
www.terabitnetworks.com <http://www.terabitnetworks.com/>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* AF <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> on behalf of Dan P via AF
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
*Sent:* Wednesday, May 20, 2026 3:02 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
*Cc:* Dan P <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] USF not a tax! IMO should die asap
Ha, if only it was PSTN, I would be happy to never use it,
everything is VOIP now. Pretty much everyone and their mother
now adds USF (some even put it in the tax section of their
bill) between Zayo, Lumen, packet exchange, and other carriers
we use we pay over 10k a mo on the useless funds, going to BS
life support to the wrong people. None of these use the
original PSTN, many have their own dark fiber, but because
out point to point Intnetnet links go over state lines its an
immediate usf tax which gets pricy on 100 and 400G links.
*From:* [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
*Sent:* Wednesday, May 20, 2026 3:42 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
*Cc:* Dan P <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
*Subject:* Re: USF not a tax! IMO should die asap
Technically it is not and was never a tax. It is a user fee
that replaced the old AT&T interstate line haul sharing that
went away with divestiture. When AT&T quit sharing a portion
of the toll with the small independent telcos NECA and later
USF stepped into that gap and allow them to get the revenue
recovery that the law specifies by tariff.
If someone doesn't want to pay USF, then avoid using the PSTN.
Has been quite the gravy train for ILECS for a very long time.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* AF <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> on behalf of Dan P via AF
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
*Sent:* Wednesday, May 20, 2026 12:16 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
*Cc:* Dan P <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
*Subject:* [AFMUG] USF not a tax! IMO should die asap
And I am sure we all know this isn’t a one off deal. I
always love how its pushed as “not a tax”
https://www.propublica.org/article/alaska-telecom-subsidies-roger-shoffstall
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