Years ago, some carriers had a form you could submit saying the circuit was used exclusively for data not voice, and they would remove the USF charge. They were not enthusiastic about doing this, and my guess is most of them just refuse now.
From: AF <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Trey Scarborough Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2026 1:33 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AFMUG] USF not a tax! IMO should die asap I'm certain this is happening and there is nothing that can be done because its a recovery fee... On 5/26/26 12:45 PM, TJ Trout wrote: Many carriers will only sell intrastate ptp circuits under a interstate agreements which they will collect usf fees on (and maybe not remit them forward?) On Tue, May 26, 2026, 10:26 AM Adam Moffett <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: I get it. It's like when you pay a fee to apply for a permit. It's "not a tax" in the sense that the legislature doesn't levy it and doesn't control the money. Chuck is obviously right that if you dialed a phone number then the call touched the phone system at least for a database lookup. I also get that when we pay money to the government it doesn't make any practical difference whether they call it a "tax" or a "fee". The money is gone and you didn't truly have a choice in the matter. Never dialing phone numbers is not a realistic option, not unless you're a hermit or otherwise don't participate in society. What is the justification for charging USF on Interstate point-to-point anyway? Is it like, "It could carry VoIP traffic, so we're just going to assume it does"? I feel like someone who uses a lot of point-to-point strictly for purposes unrelated to internet or telephone traffic could sue for damages. They'd have to pay a lot of USF fees to make that worth the trouble though. -Adam _____ From: AF <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > on behalf of Chuck <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2026 4:47 PM To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Cc: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] USF not a tax! IMO should die asap Be different if ISPs could draw from the fund based upon in your revenue requirement. I promise you would love it. Gravy train. Sent from my iPhone On May 21, 2026, at 9:37 AM, Dan P via AF <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: I am all for that, but for the love of god please don’t put it in the USF light money on fire fund, put it into Fusion power research, or other alt energy funds. From: AF <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2026 9:31 AM To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] USF not a tax! IMO should die asap Tax AI. From: AF <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > On Behalf Of Dan P via AF Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2026 10:22 AM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Cc: Dan P <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] USF not a tax! IMO should die asap Dear god, imagine hitting datacenter services, everything ISP related? it would be one of the biggest money slush funds out there From: AF <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2026 9:18 AM To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] USF not a tax! IMO should die asap Every year there is talk of expanding the contribution base, i.e. making ISPs pay into USF. So be careful what you wish for. From: AF <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > On Behalf Of Dan P via AF Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2026 10:06 AM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Cc: Dan P <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] USF not a tax! IMO should die asap The few calls I take are likely never touching the PSTN, to be honest I hate any phone calls, and from what I can see current generation also is low phone usage or any usage of PSTN (cell to cell on same carrier likely would never touch it, discord, teams, google chat, etc. But the point is, p2p data links are not PSTN, yet massive amount of USF tax gets pulled on them, yet seeing how mismanaged the program is just pissed me off. From: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2026 4:26 PM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Cc: Dan P <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: Re: USF not a tax! IMO should die asap To offer a probably glib response: Don't want to use the USF, do not dial PSTN phone numbers. That is the link. Doesn't matter if you use VOIP, if you use that phone number the PSTN is involved on some level. There are ways to talk and communicate without a phone number. Like a Facebook phone call. Best Regards, Chuck McCown McCown Technology Corporation 8401 N Commerce Dr <https://www.google.com/maps/search/8401+N+Commerce+Dr+%0D%0A+Lake+Point,+Utah+84074?entry=gmail&source=g> Lake Point, Utah 84074 <https://www.google.com/maps/search/8401+N+Commerce+Dr+%0D%0A+Lake+Point,+Utah+84074?entry=gmail&source=g> 801-250-9503 Office 435-830-4306 Cell www.mccowntech.com <http://www.mccowntech.com/> www.microtrench.pro <http://www.microtrench.pro/> www.terabitnetworks.com <http://www.terabitnetworks.com/> _____ From: AF <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > on behalf of Dan P via AF <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2026 3:02 PM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Cc: Dan P <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] USF not a tax! IMO should die asap Ha, if only it was PSTN, I would be happy to never use it, everything is VOIP now. Pretty much everyone and their mother now adds USF (some even put it in the tax section of their bill) between Zayo, Lumen, packet exchange, and other carriers we use we pay over 10k a mo on the useless funds, going to BS life support to the wrong people. None of these use the original PSTN, many have their own dark fiber, but because out point to point Intnetnet links go over state lines its an immediate usf tax which gets pricy on 100 and 400G links. From: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2026 3:42 PM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Cc: Dan P <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: Re: USF not a tax! IMO should die asap Technically it is not and was never a tax. It is a user fee that replaced the old AT&T interstate line haul sharing that went away with divestiture. When AT&T quit sharing a portion of the toll with the small independent telcos NECA and later USF stepped into that gap and allow them to get the revenue recovery that the law specifies by tariff. If someone doesn't want to pay USF, then avoid using the PSTN. Has been quite the gravy train for ILECS for a very long time. _____ From: AF <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > on behalf of Dan P via AF <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2026 12:16 PM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Cc: Dan P <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: [AFMUG] USF not a tax! IMO should die asap And I am sure we all know this isn’t a one off deal. I always love how its pushed as “not a tax” https://www.propublica.org/article/alaska-telecom-subsidies-roger-shoffstall -- AF mailing list [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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