I've used my same barber since I moved here. That's what 18 years now? She raise her rates over that same time, but she's always just gotten by. Nice person, I always offer a nice tip.
Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 12:30 PM, CBB - Jay Fuller < [email protected]> wrote: > > We still have the traditional barbershop here....used the same guys for > 20+ years. Used to be $6. Now it's ... $10? $12 > still a steal, i guess. I have to go right as the kids are being let out > of school or there is a line....and i hate lines.... > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Bill Prince <[email protected]> > *To:* [email protected] > *Sent:* Thursday, February 25, 2016 9:58 AM > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Ot buying a salon > > I think I get my "haircuts" at one of those places, as traditional > barbershops have all but disappeared around here. > > The place I go to has full service with those kind of prices, but you can > still get a haircut for about $20. When you come in the door, there is a > small waiting area, and you are offered refreshments including water, beer, > etc. I think they have at least 20 chairs, as they've recently doubled > their square footage by taking over a shop that was next door. I have no > idea how they handle the finances, but I think the stylists are on some > sort of payroll. All money goes through one one register at the front > (excepting tips). > > bp > <part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com> > > > On 2/25/2016 7:18 AM, Cameron Crum wrote: > > BTW, high end men's salons are becoming a trend, at least in urban areas. > We actually talked about opening one here. My wife says the customer turn > over is a lot faster and they pay almost as much. The idea was to have the > waiting room be a sort of bar/hang out. We give away free beer (2 max, keg > beer - total cost would be like $2/cutomer depending on the beer) and there > would be a pool table, sports games on TV, even a smoking room for cigars > and such. There would be a chair massage (for a fee of course), and a "head > massage specialist" doing shampoos as part of every cut. It wouldn't hurt > to have that one be "Very" attractive. We got into the planning stages and > then one called "The Boardroom" opened up. Oh well. However, I have buddies > who go there. Average price they pay is around $60. Some get straight razor > shaves($20), haircut($30), manicures, pedicures, etc. That is pretty good. > I bet they are out of there within 45 min. Just a haircut and they are > probably out in 30. Compare that to a girl who can take 2+ hours in a chair > and you have a pretty good business. > > On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 9:04 AM, Cameron Crum <[email protected]> wrote: > >> They do Simon. In fact, there have been several cases where Hooters was >> opening new locations and their stores became ready before they got through >> all the legal wranglings for their beer/wine license and they just gave the >> beer away. However, I'm pretty sure that most places that serve alcohol >> make most of their profit on it, so it wouldn't be smart to give it away in >> any volume. I participate in a lot of brewing competitions and we give beer >> away all day. Many are at established businesses without liqor licenses. >> Federal law says nothing about giving it away. They just want the tax money >> if you are selling it. >> >> On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 11:38 AM, Simon Westlake < <[email protected]> >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Really? I'm surprised there aren't more places doing things like 'Free >>> beer with your meal' or 'buy some peanuts at $5 a bowl and get a free >>> beer!' but maybe there's already something closing that loophole.. >>> >>> On 2/24/2016 11:34 AM, Cameron Crum wrote: >>> >>> Obviously check your liquor laws, but in most states you don't need a >>> license if you are giving it away. >>> >>> On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 11:29 AM, Chuck McCown < <[email protected]> >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> So, become a church... >>>> >>>> *From:* That One Guy /sarcasm <[email protected]> >>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 24, 2016 10:23 AM >>>> *To:* <[email protected]>[email protected] >>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Ot buying a salon >>>> >>>> Booze is not a bad idea, i dont know if you can just give it and not >>>> have a liquor license, but there are no available licenses here, i think we >>>> get one per church, so we have plenty of bars. >>>> >>>> A clarification on the relationship between the two, its a strained >>>> familiar relationship due to differences in visions. Both parties are more >>>> than agreeable to the whole scenario, I met with each separately >>>> specifically to see what the dynamic was, I didnt want to get into a train >>>> wreck. The more im learning of the details, there were alot of points in >>>> time where all it would have taken was two people just stopping to talk to >>>> one another and the disaster would have been avoidable, I think, based on >>>> knowing the individuals, that had either one of them not been in the >>>> mother/daughter environment, this would never have happened. >>>> >>>> A poor choice in the failure chain was retail, it got transitioned from >>>> commission sales to a mechanism the keep the business floating. Once that >>>> happened two things took place, the chairs saw no real benefit in pushing >>>> it which was made worse by the fact it essentially equated to a pay cut, >>>> and the financier partner saw no gain in risking bringing in any new >>>> retail. In the schooling that costs 16k, they drill that into the girls >>>> heads, retail, retail, retail, without it, all youre offering is a haircut >>>> and everybody offers a haircut. Thats already been an agreed upon term, the >>>> return of retail sales comission, and the return of loss leaders, they >>>> completely eliminated that struggling to float. I was talking to a friend >>>> of mine last night, she crochets artsy shit like baby covers and boob caps, >>>> whatever. these things move like hot cakes in the salons. We had tried to >>>> get them in the salon before, but what the owners wanted was to make profit >>>> on them to the point it wasnt worth it for her to spend the time making >>>> them for what they wanted to pay, on top of that they wanted to sell them >>>> at too much markup. This girl doesnt live here, she has a real talent at >>>> neat stuff. There are two other chics in town that make similar items, but >>>> their styles are identical to one another, and they sell them in all the >>>> salons. >>>> >>>> The old lady ended up selling them to other people in a short time for >>>> her, like crack, ladies love crocheted crack. Id have no intention of >>>> making profit on them, thats actually an expected cost. If i lose 5 bucks >>>> on some tit hat, but that client shows it to her girlfriend who just needs >>>> one as well, and were the only joint you can get them, the "staff" has the >>>> option to discount them even further when the new customer comes in to get >>>> one, if they can leverage it for a service and new contact capture. Women >>>> are weird in the crap theyll drive 20 miles to buy, but the chair has the >>>> option to grow their client base, and the shop gets a new marketing >>>> contact, thats always worth 5 or 10 bucks "loss". >>>> >>>> I also have an expectation of some loss in inventory to the ether, but >>>> one thing the daughter wanted but the financier partner couldn't justify >>>> was surveillance. That will go in day one, the chairs will know every >>>> corner that can legally be recorded will be. If theyre not serious enough >>>> about the industry to know that theft is a rampant concern, theyre not >>>> serious about growing their small business, and they can find a chair in >>>> another salon. This may be a poor attitude as a business owner, but even a >>>> high revenue generating thief is still a thief, I used to be a thief, so i >>>> know what kind of trash one is deep inside and i dont want them as part of >>>> the team. I know a couple of the salon owners overlook things. I cant do >>>> that. This salon size has potential to reach the sales numbers quickly >>>> again to where the premium pricing comes back, which is something they dont >>>> have right now. combine sales motivation with a digital retail square app >>>> or whatever that broads can but some overpriced shampoo and some nifty >>>> curling iron at a whim on their phone from the bar in the bathroom on their >>>> night out with friends and theres better pricing for more margin to offer >>>> as increased commission. The way i see that, if the store is making 3 >>>> dollars on a bottle of shampoo after commission and the pricing gains >>>> happen to where theres room for 4 dollars on it We can give 50 cents or >>>> even the whole dollar to the chairs in commission. So a chair that normally >>>> moves 3 bottles a week for 9 bucks is motivated to move more, if they move >>>> 4, im still making the same amount i would have made if i pocketed the >>>> discount as an increase in sales, but there not motivated to sell more than >>>> 3. Im over simplifying it, and probably completely wrong, but thats how ive >>>> always seen retail with commission, and salon markup is high >>>> >>>> On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 9:28 AM, Cameron Crum < <[email protected]> >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> The thing about being the 51 percent share holder is that you might as >>>>> well own the whole thing. You get to make all the decisions. Basically you >>>>> could make it very hard for the 49% owner to make a dime off of the >>>>> business outside of her labor contribution. I'm not saying you should do >>>>> this, but it sounds like there is some dead weight there and it might be >>>>> time to move on. However, your best bet is to buy the assets >>>>> (Name,chairs,equipment,etc) of the business and leave the corporate >>>>> structure alone. They can worry about their own debt and other liabilities >>>>> with whatever money you agree to pay. After that it is their problem. Sign >>>>> a new lease under the new company with the landlord and go on your way. >>>>> Now >>>>> you don't have to worry about having a boat anchor as a partner. The >>>>> current majority owner should be able to make this decision on her own. It >>>>> sucks for the daughter and will probably ruin their relationship if they >>>>> have one and the mother will probably get sued if she sells it out from >>>>> under her daughter, but oh well. I would never buy someone else's known >>>>> liabilities especially if I knew the business was in decline. You are >>>>> asking for trouble. They either need to clear up the liabilities before >>>>> the >>>>> sale (with proof of such) or sell you the assets only and GTFO. I'm sure >>>>> your lawyer and accountant would agree. >>>>> >>>>> I would also worry about the business model a little bit. It would be >>>>> too easy to cheat on the % side. Flat booth rent has lower upside, but >>>>> more >>>>> stability, Depending on commission from work leaves a lot of incentive to >>>>> hide money, especially if it is a cash business. They WILL make under the >>>>> table deals. Product is going to be a big money maker if you know how to >>>>> push it. My wife was the AVEDA rep for SoCal for a few years back in the >>>>> 90's, and has manged high end salons in Santa Monica and LA. She says that >>>>> unless you make every appointment, and actually watch what every stylist >>>>> does, it will be difficult to make sure they are being honest. The salon >>>>> manager has to really on top of her game and somewhat of a hard ass. >>>>> However, product in that business can have HUGE margins. You need to pick >>>>> a >>>>> pretty high end line, and make sure all the stylists are TRAINED correctly >>>>> by the reps on how to sell the product, and use that product exclusively >>>>> for shampoos and such. Offer them commissions on sales and make sure they >>>>> are pushing it. When I was in college I worked on the beach in S. Padre >>>>> Island in the summers for a beach service who also happened to be the >>>>> Panama Jack distributor for Texas. As we rented umbrellas and chairs and >>>>> boogie boards to people, we would push product giving free samples. They >>>>> paid me 30% of what I brought in on product, so imagine the profit in a >>>>> bottle of junk most of these places are selling. It is similar in the hair >>>>> business. >>>>> >>>>> One last thing...free booze. Keep half decent bottles of Cab, Merlot, >>>>> and Chardonnay on hand and maybe some decent beer for the occasional guy >>>>> who stumbles in or the poor schlub who was dragged along by his gf and >>>>> offer it to everyone. Don't let them get drunk, but a glass or two over >>>>> an >>>>> hour or so helps to loosen the purse strings. Feeding the dude a beer or >>>>> two makes sitting in a salon more bearable and he might even spring for >>>>> that $30 bottle of sweet conditioner that makes his chicks hair soft and >>>>> smell good so he can take her home and see how fast he can mess it up. >>>>> >>>>> Good luck >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 5:41 AM, Lewis Bergman < >>>>> <[email protected]>[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> How you pay yourself can depend on the type of corporate form you >>>>>> take. LLC that are pass through don't pay taxes and all income follows >>>>>> through to the owner's tax filing via a K1. I agree with forest in that >>>>>> you >>>>>> should count your salary, even though sometimes you may have to put it >>>>>> right back in. The other side of that is if you take "excess" pay make >>>>>> sure >>>>>> to record that on the books in a way you can pull that off in a >>>>>> presentation to a potential buyer. >>>>>> You should keep forefront in mind that you must pay no more than what >>>>>> it is worth no matter what the present owners would like to get out of >>>>>> it. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Feb 24, 2016, 3:40 AM Forrest Christian (List Account) < >>>>>> <[email protected]>[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I started writing a long post about how to work through this >>>>>>> logically, but it sounds like you're already going down that path. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The thoughts that occurred to me for you to consider: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The business part of a failing business isn't worth anything. If >>>>>>> you buy this, you're essentially going to have to pick up scraps (which >>>>>>> carry baggage with them) and try to overcome that baggage. Unless you >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> put a hard number on the value of the going business I wouldn't >>>>>>> consider it >>>>>>> worth anything. And, one caution: There is a temptation to treat the >>>>>>> existing customers (which may actually be the stylists, not the people >>>>>>> getting their hair cut/nails done) as an asset, but you have to realize >>>>>>> that a tarnished reputation is going to make everything more difficult >>>>>>> than >>>>>>> it would be if you started fresh. You have to ask yourself if gaining >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> existing business is worth the pain. You may actually decide that the >>>>>>> business part of the business has a negative value as a result. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Assuming the business part of the business has no value, you need to >>>>>>> ask yourself how much are the physical things you're buying (i.e. the >>>>>>> chairs, nail beds, etc.) worth. That's probably all you want to pay up >>>>>>> front. Paying extra for the 'idea' of a salon seems silly. Remember >>>>>>> things haven't been maintained so some of these are going to have to be >>>>>>> replaced, maybe soon. So you need to look at the depreciated value >>>>>>> (how >>>>>>> much value they actually have left) - taking it back to a wisp, if you >>>>>>> buy >>>>>>> a router which lasts 5 years, 2.5 years in that router is only worth >>>>>>> half >>>>>>> as much, quite possibly even less. Consider that when valuating items. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Assuming you could come to a purchase price that was reasonable, >>>>>>> then, and only then should you look at the financials to see if you can >>>>>>> make it work, including a reasonable return on investment. >>>>>>> (Ok that sounded kinda wrong. What I mean is: Don't over pay for >>>>>>> the assets. Don't justify over paying for the assets just because the >>>>>>> business operation numbers (P&L) look good based on your best guesses of >>>>>>> costs. Figure out what the assets are worth (including the business >>>>>>> part >>>>>>> of the business), and use that for negotiations, not any percieved >>>>>>> potential future benefit. That isn't what you're paying for - you're >>>>>>> paying for the assets.). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A bit of a note in relation to the above is to mention that if you >>>>>>> can make a business case for a business salon in your town, then >>>>>>> there's a >>>>>>> good chance you could start a salon with or without buying the existing >>>>>>> business. That's why I'm saying 'the business part of the business is >>>>>>> probably not worth much, especially with a tarnished reputation'. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Once you get to the point of working through your business operation >>>>>>> numbers (P&L), there are a few caveats/suggestions: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1) YOU MUST PAY YOURSELVES. This is important. Plan on paying >>>>>>> yourselves from day one. Figure out what a reasonable pay rate is and >>>>>>> pay >>>>>>> yourselves. If you don't do this, you will never ever make any money at >>>>>>> this. It's ok to escalate this with increasing load. For instance, >>>>>>> when >>>>>>> you start, you may only need a few hours a week... but still pay >>>>>>> yourselves. One even worse gotcha is that not paying yourself sometimes >>>>>>> indicates to the IRS this isn't intended as a going business and that >>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>> something you want to have happen. Ok, it's okay to put a bit of sweat >>>>>>> equity into the business at first, but very shortly, you should start >>>>>>> paying yourself for your time. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2) You must consider depreciation of equipment. You're going to >>>>>>> have to replace that equipment sometime, you need to plan for it, and >>>>>>> book >>>>>>> for it. This needs to be put in your business plan from day one. >>>>>>> That >>>>>>> equipment you purchased costs you on an ongoing basis. If your >>>>>>> business >>>>>>> plan doesn't account for replacing the equipment at correct intervals, >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> will end up 7 years from now with an even shoddier place which is worth >>>>>>> less than you paid for it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 3) Consider an exit strategy. How can you position yourself to be >>>>>>> able to sell this for *more* money than you paid for it a few years from >>>>>>> now. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 4) If "your woman" plans on being a stylist there, consider treating >>>>>>> her from a financial point EXACTLY like any of the other stylists, at >>>>>>> least >>>>>>> for her stylist work. That is, charge her rent for her station, etc. >>>>>>> etc. >>>>>>> etc. That way she will be pulling an income from the business just >>>>>>> like if >>>>>>> she was a stylist elsewhere. This will produce revenue for the business >>>>>>> which it will need to pay the rent and also her salary for management >>>>>>> duties. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think that's all I can think of for now... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I do have one other reference I point ANYONE starting a business to, >>>>>>> and thats a book/website called "business model generation". It >>>>>>> contains >>>>>>> tools to help people work through a successful business model. If I was >>>>>>> doing what you're considering, I'd work through this process considering >>>>>>> your customers as your stylists (which seems to be the normal model) >>>>>>> which >>>>>>> means the services (aka value proposition) you provide to your customers >>>>>>> are things like providing a workspace, credit card processing, >>>>>>> advertising, >>>>>>> etc. Your goal in this business model is to fill every slot in your >>>>>>> salon >>>>>>> with happy stylists which you can charge large amounts of money for the >>>>>>> quality workspaces you provide and the continuous flood of new customers >>>>>>> your advertising provides to them. The other option is running a >>>>>>> business >>>>>>> model where your customers are the actual people getting their hair and >>>>>>> nails done. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'd recommend getting a dead tree version of the book (by Alexander >>>>>>> Osterwalder), but you may want to check the first part out online at >>>>>>> businessmodelgeneration.com... They have a exerpt which is basically an >>>>>>> introduction available. This isn't for everyone - some people just >>>>>>> don't >>>>>>> get this book. I haven't figured out a pattern about who this does or >>>>>>> doesn't work for yet either (I'm usually wrong, so maybe it's all the >>>>>>> people I don't think would like it). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In any case, good luck. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 5:57 PM, That One Guy /sarcasm < >>>>>>> <[email protected]>[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Salons are service industry with subcontractorish environments, so >>>>>>>> it's not all that different than wisp, except it's all broads. >>>>>>>> The salon my woman works at is failing, poor management decisions, >>>>>>>> partners who are family (mother funded, daughter managed) mother owns >>>>>>>> 51 >>>>>>>> percent daughter 49. At one point it was an established and successful >>>>>>>> business, but feelings got hurt, partners fighting, a staff coup that >>>>>>>> took >>>>>>>> a substantial amount of clientelle, facilities not maintained. No clear >>>>>>>> company structure as far as owners getting paid. A 7 thousand dollar >>>>>>>> and 13 >>>>>>>> thousand dollar note owed to the mother partner, etc. Management >>>>>>>> software >>>>>>>> client capture went from over 800 clients to under 200 captures over a >>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>> year span indicating to me the "staff" quit putting a lot of services >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> the books and was pocketing the cash. It was an llc but they quit >>>>>>>> paying it >>>>>>>> and transferred it into what they refer to as a partnership with the >>>>>>>> 51 49 >>>>>>>> thing, I have not seen that documentation >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I assume a lot of this could be correlated to many of your >>>>>>>> purchases of family run wisps. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This has the potential to be turned around, the salon had a good >>>>>>>> reputation, and volume at one point, and its the only full service one >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> the town, so it's not completely failed. There also is room to >>>>>>>> incorporate >>>>>>>> some other sources of revenue into the mix. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The 51 percent partner wants out, they would like to simply recoup >>>>>>>> the majority of their outstanding debt and was their hands of the >>>>>>>> matter. >>>>>>>> Initially this was offered to us for 7k but that left an outstanding >>>>>>>> liability of 13 on the business to the same person, and that note is >>>>>>>> secure >>>>>>>> via a mortgage extension. That didn't sound like a good risk so we told >>>>>>>> them to get a better proposal consisting of buying out that half of the >>>>>>>> partnership as well as a second proposal for buying out the entire >>>>>>>> partnership. The "assets" including minimal revenue of a single >>>>>>>> occupied >>>>>>>> station for a year was informally estimated at around 34k. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The daughter partner who is the primary "contractor" had a 45k >>>>>>>> recorded revenue. I don't recall the revenue from the other occupied >>>>>>>> chair >>>>>>>> of the 5 chairs and the retail had substantially dropped, I suspect >>>>>>>> due to >>>>>>>> it becoming free when nobody was looking. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Recovery could take place, as they offer the full spa set of >>>>>>>> services, however they currently are limited in their massage and >>>>>>>> facials >>>>>>>> by contractors who don't show up. This can be resolved fairly quickly >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> the massage therapist by recruiting one I'm aware of who is looking >>>>>>>> for a >>>>>>>> new place to operate because her stand alone office did not generate >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> revenue to justify the expense and overhead. Also my it job has >>>>>>>> allowed me >>>>>>>> to build good personal relationships with a lot of beneficial >>>>>>>> businesses, >>>>>>>> primarily the beauty school for recruiting fresh "contractors" to fill >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> empty chairs, they just don't come with clients. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This is a more rushed scenario than I would prefer, this was a 3-5 >>>>>>>> year plan, but circumstances presented. Our lust for business ownership >>>>>>>> stands to cloud judgement, and that in itself is enough to walk away. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We have a meeting later this week for presentation of the >>>>>>>> proposals. What I don't know is what documentation in particular I >>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>> request. I can ask for "financials" but I don't know what that actually >>>>>>>> means, or what further information to ask for. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm reaching out here because you guys are my favorite cheap dates, >>>>>>>> and a lot of you have experiences more valuable than any advice I >>>>>>>> could pay >>>>>>>> an attorney for. After this next meeting is when our expenses start, >>>>>>>> so we >>>>>>>> need to be able to make a personal judgement at that point if it's a >>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>> enough opportunity to go to a lawyer and start paying for the non >>>>>>>> refundable advice. It's also when we make the decision of how foolish >>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>> want to look in front of our bankers. I like my banker though, and he >>>>>>>> might >>>>>>>> be in poor spirits and need a good laugh. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Smart me knows this is not the right time to take risks like this >>>>>>>> when I only have 7 short years til my boy needs a college education >>>>>>>> and if >>>>>>>> this goes south, mom and dads financial support will be out. But the >>>>>>>> potential makes it worth looking at, like watching a train wreck. >>>>>>>> There are >>>>>>>> also some other long term prospects this makes possible so that benefit >>>>>>>> alone makes it well worth an investigation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I really would appreciate some sage advice from experience in small >>>>>>>> business. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From what I have seen, there is no formal business structure, in >>>>>>>> other words I don't see >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.* >>>>>>> Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 >>>>>>> <[email protected]>[email protected] | >>>>>>> <http://www.packetflux.com/>http://www.packetflux.com >>>>>>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian> >>>>>>> <http://facebook.com/packetflux> <http://twitter.com/@packetflux> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your >>>> team as part of yourself you have already failed as part of the team. >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Simon Westlake >>> Skype: Simon_Sonar >>> Email: [email protected] >>> Phone: (702) 447-1247 >>> --------------------------- >>> Sonar Software Inc >>> The next generation of ISP billing and OSShttps://sonar.software >>> >>> >> > >
