On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 1:59 PM Boris Kazachenko <cogno...@gmail.com> wrote:
> We must define a process in which language can emerge from incrementally > complex encoding of analog sensory input. Anything short of that is a > cargo-cult AI. > We have to work on ptoblems we can solve. Anything short of that is message-in-a-bottle AI. Jim Bromer On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 1:59 PM Boris Kazachenko <cogno...@gmail.com> wrote: > We must define a process in which language can emerge from incrementally > complex encoding of analog sensory input. Anything short of that is a > cargo-cult AI. > > > On Sun, Mar 17, 2019 at 2:53 PM Jim Bromer <jimbro...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I guess I should add that I think strong AI may start out with simple >> 'principles/ or methods but it might start out with very complicated >> principles and methods as well. I do not think an attitude that animal >> physiology -must- be simple is very realistic. However, I do not see any >> good evidence to assume that simple methods cannot suffice as a starting >> point for stronger AI. On the other hand, I think there is lots of evidence >> that complicatedness is a major problem for stronger AI >> So when I argue that the study of natural language processing is a major >> move toward strong AI I am talking about AI that can adapt to special >> languages that are used frequently amongst a group, just as we have our own >> language to talk about what we are talking about. The average person would >> have no idea what I am talking about, but most of you can make some sense >> out of what I am saying (whether you agree with it or not.) If a natural >> language processing programming can adapt to novel usages of terms and >> sentences, then it can learn, and I would say that it would also need to >> have overcome the present day hurdles of complicatedness in some way. >> I think there are undiscovered mathematical methods that will one day >> take a giant step over the present-day hurdle of complicatedness. >> Jim Bromer >> >> >> On Sun, Mar 17, 2019 at 10:01 AM Jim Bromer <jimbro...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> This argument from Robert Levy is not quite right, in my opinion. While >>> most animals do not have a sophisticated language, it can be seen that >>> animals are capable of learning about routine events and attach meaning to >>> linguistic cues (or other kinds of sensory events like bells) to those >>> routine generalizations. That would constitute a language, and it >>> exemplifies the contention that to collect insight about (the >>> generalizations of a kind) of event constitutes a symbolization of a >>> precursor of the event. The knowledge that a precursor might represent an >>> event thereby demonstrates that the animal has a basic 'linguistic' >>> ability. And the idea that an animal can associate a learned signal with a >>> possible event (like dinner) shows that the animal has the power of a >>> 'linguistic' imagination. >>> Could designing a robot that has to learn to walk be the breakthrough in >>> strong AI according to Robert's thesis? Because there are some animals that >>> can learn to walk within a few hours of being born A foal is an example. >>> Foals have spindly legs that splay a little with the first steps but they >>> are not mechanically designed for stability like a stationary landing pod >>> on a spacecraft. The idea that designing an artificial process that is >>> simple for some animals might represent a breakthrough in AI does not make >>> sense for one reason. It does not take complexity into account. (I am >>> speaking of complicatedness of course.) It is very easy to design AI >>> programs that can operate within extremely simple domain data-spaces The >>> problem is dealing with extremely complicated domain environments where >>> complexity is a major hurdle. >>> It is a mistake to think that language research in AI is not a pathway >>> towards AGI. However it is a mistake to think that linguistic abilities are >>> themselves strong AI just as it is a mistake to think that designing a >>> robot that can learn to walk is strong AI. Both of these challenges can be >>> met by simplifying the environmental domain sufficiently. The challenge is >>> finding a way that true learning can take place when confronted with >>> thousands of complications. >>> Jim Bromer >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Mar 7, 2019 at 7:24 PM Robert Levy <r.p.l...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> It's very easy to show that "AGI should not be designed for NL". Just >>>> ask yourself the following questions: >>>> >>>> 1. How many species demonstrate impressive leverage of intentional >>>> behaviors? (My answer would be: all of them, though some more than others) >>>> 2. How many species have language (My answer: only one) >>>> 3. How biologically different do you think humans are from apes? (My >>>> answer: not much different, the whole human niche is probably a consequence >>>> one adaptive difference: cooperative communication by scaffolding of joint >>>> attention) >>>> >>>> I'm with Rodney Brooks on this, the hard part of AGI has nothing to do >>>> with language, it has to do with agents being highly optimized to control >>>> an environment in terms of ecological information supporting >>>> perception/action. Just as uplifting apes will likely require only minor >>>> changes, uplifting animaloid AGI will likely require only minor changes. >>>> Even then we still haven't explicitly cared about language, we've cared >>>> about cooperation by means of joint attention, which can be made use of >>>> culturally develop language. >>>> >>>> On Thu, Mar 7, 2019 at 12:05 PM Boris Kazachenko <cogno...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I would be more than happy to pay: >>>>> https://github.com/boris-kz/CogAlg/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md , but >>>>> I don't think you are working on AGI. >>>>> No one here does, this is a NLP chatbot crowd. Anyone who thinks that >>>>> AGI should be designed for NL data as a primary input is profoundly >>>>> confused. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Mar 7, 2019 at 7:04 AM Stefan Reich via AGI < >>>>> agi@agi.topicbox.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Not from you guys necessarily... :o) But I thought I'd let you know. >>>>>> >>>>>> Pitch: >>>>>> https://www.meetup.com/Artificial-Intelligence-Meetup/messages/boards/thread/52050719 >>>>>> >>>>>> Let's see if it can be done... funny how some hurdles always seem to >>>>>> appear when you're about to finish something good. Something about the >>>>>> duality of the universe I guess. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Stefan Reich >>>>>> BotCompany.de // Java-based operating systems >>>>>> >>>>> *Artificial General Intelligence List > <https://agi.topicbox.com/latest>* / AGI / see discussions > <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi> + participants > <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/members> + delivery options > <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/subscription> Permalink > <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/T191003acdcbf5ef8-M8d5654b1e3c7a33c6033c805> > ------------------------------------------ Artificial General Intelligence List: AGI Permalink: https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/T191003acdcbf5ef8-Mb417baeb65bc28a3521b3f4c Delivery options: https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/subscription
