On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 12:17 PM Ben Goertzel <b...@goertzel.org> wrote:
>
> Regarding the CCP as a general intelligence(*), I would say all societies
> and large corporations can be viewed that way, but I don't see evidence
> that the corporate-government complex of China is more generally
> intelligent than the corporate-government complexes of US or Western
> Europe. What is the evidence or argument in that regard?...
>
If the CCP is more capable of assimilating ("Turking") the US to the CCP's
utility function than vis versa then any claims as to the US being "more
generally intelligent" become superfluous. That's what I meant when I said:
> The CCP-as-AGI is more capable of "Turking" the US-as-AGI than is the
US-as-AGI of "Turking" the CCP-as-AGI.
> (*) to me calling a country or corporation an "AGI" feels needlessly
> confusing, since these are systems largely composed of humans, and not
> engineered from human parts but evolved from human social interactions.
> But whatever, I understand what is meant.
>
The Future of Humanity Institute <https://www.fhi.ox.ac.uk/> is an exemplar
for why the question of "Whose utility function?" cannot be swept under the
rug with regards to "systems largely composed of humans...evolved from
human social interactions". Indeed "artificial" means humans had agency in
the creation of the artifact. The concern of "Friendly Artificial General
Intelligence" hence "The Future of Humanity" is all about the proper
application of that agency in selecting the utility function of aid
artifact. What future is there for "humanity" under the wrong utility
function of _any_ notion of AGI?
>
> On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 6:54 AM James Bowery <jabow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> As with "AI debates" in general, people can easily talk past each other
>> by failing to acknowledge they are addressing different questions. Ben
>> Goertzel is addressing China's in/ability to create an "AGI" in the sense
>> of Legg, Hutter, et al. Steve Richfield is positing the CCP _is_ an "AGI"
>> in a more vague sense that might, if "black boxed" also fit with "AGI" in
>> the sense of Legg, Hutter, et al. Now, it may certainly be argued that
>> _if_ Steve is right, _then_ it is capable of _creating_ an AGI: "The
>> Singularity" occurs when some AI achieves the ability to create a more
>> intelligent AI, and this threshold of "AI" is the most general notion of
>> AGI.
>>
>> My approach, respecting Steve's original question, is from a position
>> that what we call "The Global Economy" _is_ an AGI that is already
>> operating with an "unfriendly" utility function, seeing individual human
>> beings as raw materials in its environment to refine into "Mechanical
>> Turks". The only extent to which human quality of life, or even the
>> quality of the biosphere, is relevant to this AGI is the extent to which it
>> can provide resources to replicate its incorporations (corporations/NGOs,
>> governments, etc.) wielding hive-like power over, and ultimately
>> disintermediating life in seeking access to energy and matter. The CCP is
>> merely among the more conspicuous cases of evolution toward such an
>> incipient AGI hive incorporation.
>>
>> Now, having clarified the question I am addressing (Steve's in the OP):
>>
>> Hive specialization in eusocial species recapitulates, in a less
>> effective way, the clone-army specialization seen in sexual organism
>> stem-cell differentiation (modulating SC clone gene expression) into
>> various organs of the organism. The brain is an organ. The CCP constructs
>> its "brain" not so much by altering gene expression of clones but by
>> utilizing its long history of civil service examination to mine the
>> population for "neurons". THAT is where the math comes in to compare the
>> CCP to the US government's intelligence agencies. Having said that, Ben is
>> correct that the CCP's structure is more amenable to this mining operation,
>> and one should see the "private sector" coddled by the CCP as an updated
>> form of its civil service examination tradition. While it may be true that
>> the resulting "brain" is not going to be as capable of producing a silicon
>> AGI as the US, this misses Steve's, or at least my point:
>>
>> The CCP-as-AGI is more capable of "Turking" the US-as-AGI than is the
>> US-as-AGI of "Turking" the CCP-as-AGI.
>>
>> Why do I say this?
>>
>> See my prior post describing all the ways the US has inhibited its own
>> intelligence agencies from mining the population for intelligence that
>> those intelligence agencies can "Turk". Indeed, it is my working
>> hypothesis that this inhibition was the result of the CCP engaging in the
>> _real_ "Unrestricted Warfare" that the document by that name represents as
>> something far more benign.
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 5:03 AM Ben Goertzel <b...@goertzel.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I don't think China's slightly higher average IQ is a big advantage for
>>> them...
>>>
>>> However, their governmental organization obviously has some practical
>>> advantages. As one example, they can get their intel/ military work done
>>> directly within their big internet tech companies, rather than via sluggish
>>> military contractors and limited-scope awkward back-channel-ish alliances
>>> with big internet tech companies like happens in the US. This means they
>>> are getting on average cleverer and harder working folks working on their
>>> gov't oriented tech, not due to IQ issues but due to organizational
>>> issues...
>>>
>>> On the other hand they continue to have deep problems with radical
>>> technical innovation due to a persistent culture of mistrust, and this will
>>> cause them real issues, because there are significant differences btw US
>>> and China contexts and copying/adapting Western innovations will probably
>>> not allow them to overtake the West technologically...
>>>
>>> I predict AGI will emerge first via organizations that are centered in
>>> the West, and China will then attempt to copy it, but will not be fast
>>> enough ... because the org that first creates AGI will be very fast-moving
>>> and agile and not that easy for creativity-phobic Chinese institutions to
>>> catch up with
>>>
>>> Note I lived in HK for 9 yrs and made many dozens of trips to Beijing,
>>> Shanghai, Xiamen etc. etc. ... I have met w/ folks at the highest levels in
>>> Chinese tech companies and SOEs and fairly high up in gov't. There is a
>>> lot to admire and a lot to fear there, but I don't think China is really in
>>> the race as regards AGI and nor do they have the capacity to extremely
>>> rapidly play catch-up
>>>
>>> Of course all this could change in 10 yrs, so these comments are most
>>> relevant if AGI is achieved in the next say 7 yrs...
>>>
>>> ben
>>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 4:22 PM James Bowery <jabow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It's "Unrestricted Warfare
>>>> <https://archive.org/stream/Unrestricted_Warfare_Qiao_Liang_and_Wang_Xiangsui/Unrestricted_Warfare_Qiao_Liang_and_Wang_Xiangsui_djvu.txt>"
>>>> and as I've pointed out on numerous occasions, that document strikes me as
>>>> a limited hangout disinformation. Keep in mind the Chinese have a higher
>>>> average IQ than Europeans, their population is several times larger and
>>>> they have a _very_ long history of civil service examinations.
>>>> Extrapolate that mean advantage out to the high IQ tail where the ratios
>>>> explode and it's hard to imagine how great an advantage they have when it
>>>> comes to "peacetime" strategy. Add to that the belly-full of the West with
>>>> Sassoon's steamships delivering opium and Mao calling it "a century of
>>>> humiliation"...
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 6:48 PM Steve Richfield <
>>>> steve.richfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> As you are reading this, doing the best you can to survive the
>>>>> Pandemic, consider...
>>>>>
>>>>> The Chinese Communist Party (CCP) is a pretty good model for AGI, as
>>>>> there are ~500 people working together to provide the best possible
>>>>> management for China as it attempts to interact as well as possible with
>>>>> the rest of the world. A rising tide usually floats all boats, but China
>>>>> perceived an advantage to restrict information about COVID-19 to inflict
>>>>> it
>>>>> on the rest of the world, which is consistent with their internal manual
>>>>> *Unconventional
>>>>> Warfare*, which details LOTS of dirty tricks you might expect an AGI
>>>>> to employ as it seeks its goals. This manual is a REALLY scary read.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why would anyone expect an AGI to be any "friendlier" than the CCP?
>>>>> Why wouldn't anyone expect an AGI to be even nastier?
>>>>>
>>>>> This dirty deed WILL work for the CCP - unless worldwide revulsion
>>>>> costs the CCP even more. I doubt whether an AGI would greatly consider
>>>>> feelings that run counter to profit. We may all be paying dearly for not
>>>>> reigning in the CCP long ago - and we might end up paying more if we turn
>>>>> an AGI loose on the world - for exactly the SAME reasons.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>> *Steve Richfield*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
>>>>> Virus-free.
>>>>> www.avg.com
>>>>> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
>>>>> <#m_1605324203124623133_m_-6270798265471999323_m_5607257108388460483_m_-1736473155726088713_m_-9213456288835467840_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ben Goertzel, PhD
>>> http://goertzel.org
>>>
>>> “Words exist because of meaning; once you've got the meaning you can
>>> forget the words. How can we build an AGI who will forget words so I can
>>> have a word with him?” -- Zhuangzhi++
>>>
>
> --
> Ben Goertzel, PhD
> http://goertzel.org
>
> “Words exist because of meaning; once you've got the meaning you can
> forget the words. How can we build an AGI who will forget words so I can
> have a word with him?” -- Zhuangzhi++
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