On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 3:28 PM, Dimitry Volfson <[email protected]> wrote: "Language just provides labels for easier access to what may be the same or similar concept."
No, that is exactly where I disagree with you - and a lot of other people as well. I suspect that there is a profound difference in our views that lie right along this fault line. We use language to "motivate" other people to "show" them something and to "teach" them. A good teacher or writer does a lot more than "provide labels." Jim Bromer On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 3:28 PM, Dimitry Volfson <[email protected]> wrote: > Jim, > > Well, language is the proverbial tip of the iceberg, concepts live below > the level of language. Language just provides labels for easier access to > what may be the same or similar concept. > > They live in the models, which can be represented as systems of relations, > evidence evaluation systems, and such. > > What I'm asking is if you have an idea for the problem of modeling other > minds. If everyone had the same concept models, there would be little point > in talking to each other, and that is the purpose of language -- > coordination (or influence) of action among people who may have different > ideas about the same label (that is, the name of a concept). > > -- Dimitry > > > On 10/8/2012 7:08 AM, Jim Bromer wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 2:31 AM, Dimitry Volfson <[email protected]> wrote: > "John believes Mary Loves John." > > Ok, so as a surface structure relation, that's straightforward. > > But the deep structure is: Why does John believe that Mary Love John? Is > it the way she talks to him, the way she touches him, the way she laughs at > his jokes, etc. What evidence does John think means that Mary Loves John. > > "John believes Mary Loves John" implies John has a model of what Love > looks like, and has seen some of that in Mary's relations to him. This > model and evidence is the deep structure. And the evidence that produced > the model is an even deeper structure. > > Did he get that model by watching his parents' behavior toward each other, > or watching TV shows, or reading romance novels, or what his friends told > him, etc.? There is no right answer to what is "love" -- it's a vague > concept that different people can disagree on without a definitive answer. > And many human concepts are like that (loyalty, bravery, cowardice, > morality, etc). > > Dimitry, > You are coming up with common answers to a question about a human > experience but then you are claiming that because the reasons for the > affect are vague and people disagree with the answers and there is no > definitive answer then a network of conceptual structure won't work to > produce AGI or something. OK, there are no definitive answers. Why would > you think that is a problem? Do you believe that AGI has to be based on > universally held truths or something? That is a historically regressive > point of view and it never really was a sensible foundation for a model for > human-like intelligence. > > I agree with you that intelligence is the ability to gather insights about > a concept. So your example is ok. > > Your real criticism is based on the fact that while a structural analysis > in linguistics can find a particular simple transformation for a statement, > the reasons for the experience denoted by the statement are multiple and > must be drawn from many experiences and from contemplation and from > education. Let me answer one criticism that was implicit in your remarks. > While the ability to learn from education is a mark of higher intelligence, > the argument that a computer program is not therefore able to learn through > some sort of education must be based on the assumption that computers are > not capable of intelligence. This is obviously not a good reason to > conclude that AGI is imposible or that the conceptual network and > conceptual structure which I mentioned is not strong enough to produce > intelligence. > > The contemporary complication is due to the fact that certain basic > principles of AGI are elusive. That is, an automated program is able to > derive some valid insights about the world, but it is missing so > many foundational principles that even the simplest structures cannot be > maintained. Yes that might be due to a lack of a method to discover basic > truths, but it also might be due to an overly parsimonius methodology which > simply will not provide the program with the ability to derive enough > possibilties to build on. Perhaps the basis for natural intelligence might > be better likened to a beaver dam than a metropolis. > > The conceptual network and conceptual structure theories would provide a > mechanism to hold a variety of reasons and insights related to a concept > that is being considered, and these insights would tend to be distributed. > There is a problem with getting computers to explore multiple possible > relations that build on multiple possible relations and I call that the > complexity problem. However, this problem does not prove that the > conceptual network and conceptual structure, as I am talking about it, is > wrong. > > Jim Bromer > > > > On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 2:31 AM, Dimitry Volfson <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Jim, >> >> For diagrams: Visio, or MindJet. >> >> Apart from that, are you considering deep structure relations, as opposed >> to surface structure (language). >> >> For Example, from the YKY "Concept Composition Logic" paper: >> >> "John believes Mary Loves John." >> >> Ok, so as a surface structure relation, that's straightforward. >> >> But the deep structure is: Why does John believe that Mary Love John? Is >> it the way she talks to him, the way she touches him, the way she laughs at >> his jokes, etc. What evidence does John think means that Mary Loves John. >> >> "John believes Mary Loves John" implies John has a model of what Love >> looks like, and has seen some of that in Mary's relations to him. This >> model and evidence is the deep structure. And the evidence that produced >> the model is an even deeper structure. >> >> Did he get that model by watching his parents' behavior toward each >> other, or watching TV shows, or reading romance novels, or what his friends >> told him, etc.? There is no right answer to what is "love" -- it's a vague >> concept that different people can disagree on without a definitive answer. >> And many human concepts are like that (loyalty, bravery, cowardice, >> morality, etc). >> >> On 10/7/2012 7:56 PM, Jim Bromer wrote: >> >> >> I don't have a diagram and I would not know how to draw one. The idea is >> that a great deal of information can be related to different kinds of >> concepts that might be considered central to some idea. I have figured out >> a way that I should be able to experiment with the idea using concrete >> examples expressed with simple language. This experiment will not be a >> true AGI program but it should allow me to see if the structural conceptual >> networks idea is feasible as a way to represent an AGI program. >> >> >> On Sun, Oct 7, 2012 at 7:14 PM, Piaget Modeler <[email protected] >> > wrote: >> >>> >>> Diagrams Jim, >>> >>> Diagrams. >>> >>> ~PM >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 18:07:38 -0400 >>> >>> Subject: Re: [agi] Conceptual Structure? >>> From: [email protected] >>> To: [email protected] >>> >>> >>> I forgot about conceptual structure itself. Conceptual structure is >>> based on the idea that structure in language is vital to understanding >>> language, and that structure in ideas must also be understood to understand >>> the ideas. For instance temporal structure is often important and so is >>> positional structure. But when you think about it these two kinds of >>> relationships are only concepts. While they seem to have a wide >>> application to many different kinds of things they are still only >>> concepts. This shows that concepts may play different kinds of roles when >>> used with other concepts. This insight seems obvious to me but it also >>> seems obviously important. If you can find that certain concepts can take >>> on the role of an abstracting or generalizing agent then doesn't this imply >>> that other concepts might also take on roles that go beyond their surface >>> characteristics? For example, the position of an object is what it is. To >>> recognize that position and relative position might be used to create >>> highly generalized principles that have advanced mankind's understanding of >>> matter and technology is to recognize that a seemingly dull feature of a >>> concept can be used as an agent of insight. So then I am saying that by >>> exploring the roles and structures of concepts I expect to find other >>> activating principles of insight that may have eluded us so far. >>> Jim Bromer >>> >>> >>> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/10561250-164650b2> | >>> Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>> >> >> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/10215994-5ed4e9d1> | >> Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >> <http://www.listbox.com> >> >> >> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/10561250-164650b2> | >> Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >> <http://www.listbox.com> >> >> >> ____________________________________________________________ >> *Refinance for 1.750%/2.926% APR* >> Loans under 729K usually qualify for US GOV backed refinance programs >> <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/5072733edf501733d589bst02duc> >> theeasyloansite.com<http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/5072733edf501733d589bst02duc> > > > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/10215994-5ed4e9d1> | > Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > > > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/10561250-164650b2> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > > > ____________________________________________________________ > *Woman is 57 But Looks 27* > Mom publishes simple facelift trick that angered doctors... > <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/507329775ae582975316dst03duc> > ConsumerLifestyles.org<http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/507329775ae582975316dst03duc> ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-c97d2393 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-2484a968 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
