Mike, Steve, You've misinterpreted my point, I have missed some of the earlier messages, too:
Steve> The world has FAR more than a million "monkeys" typing on their keyboards, to stumble onto inductive solutions to > every problem. The challenge is NOT in finding the solutions to the world's problems. Instead, the challenge is in > getting enough "traction" to even have a decision maker see and recognize a solution when one is proposed. >What we REALLY need is an "AGI recognizer" that recognizes and catalogs prospective solutions from the Internet. This > would do FAR more than any suggested AGI. Todor: What world problems... *Not About Politics...* The human factors related to massive amounts of people is something that's pretty stochastic, if the solution depends on the agreement of so-and-so, some big VIPs, the president of..., the King, the prime-minister, the director of the TV, or if you have to persuade so and so people to "buy a product", and those people on average have so-and-so intelligence, cultural background, needs etc. - that's not AGI in the above sense, that's sociology and is more of politics, propaganda, marketing (which is a sort of "politics" and popaganda). Not that the creative AGI I'm talking about won't help here as well, to analyze the situation faster and write the papers or propose solutions. The *ACCEPTANCE* of the suggestions, if it's out of the machine's/AGI control, if it fails - you should blame the people. The results can be inconsistent and random, no matter the intelligence, the immediate AGI goals I'm talking about are in fields, applications, where intelligence and creativity are independent and give consistent results, and whose success doesn't depend on tricking people, manipulating them, exploiting them, be corrupted, steal, abuse power and position etc. - many "qualities" according to many humans. ... You probably haven't read a satirical short story by the Bulgarian SF writer Lyuben Dilov, where a peaceful alien civilization meets the humanity and leaves an embassador on Earth. He is supposed to educate people and tranfer to them more advanced technologies. One of the proposed technology was an AGI, a wise machine supposed to take over the political decisions and let people leave in peace - no nuclear wars, no wars - peace and love. However what happened? Well, humans didn't want it. The politicians who hold those positions would never agree to adopt such a technology - of course, they will justify it by citing scenarios like the one you talk about, or perhaps "The Terminator"... [[[ Note: Without understanding the real message, see my previous one - humans put Skynet to be a military computer, humans are threatening each others with nuclear rockets - if humans were peaceful, if they lived in brotherhood, they wouldn't have used nuclear weapons or would need military at all, and Skynet wouldn't be able to launch those rockets. If humans haven't connected it to the military computer, in order to gain strategical advantage against their enemy - USSR - the machine wouldn't start the war. The same goes for the "Wargames" movies, it also goes for "2001: A Space Odyssey", where the "bad" thinking machines are actually doing what they are taught is appropriate for this situations by humans, are humans have put them in that situation, and then pointing out "look, AI is dangerous!" And something else about all those catastrophic stories - there's a stupid bias towards disasters. Humans, or maybe the authors, also the media, believe that humans want to watch disasters, destruction, death, crimes etc. All "bad stuff" - that's sick. They actually are exploiting the primitive fears of the average humans, it seems that adrenaline and those kind of emotions are a stronger driver. Also generally a movie or a story must have dramatic settings, there must be a protagonist and an antagonist, some kind of battles etc., otherwise it's not interesting. ]]]] [Back to the short story] People didn't want peace and brotherhood between nations however, politicians wanted themselves to be on top, to shuttle around the world as VIPs, go to the UN conferences, drive their corruption schemes - that spreads from the local political organizations up to the highest representatives, if an AGI makes the decisions, all that hierarchy will become useless, and all those people, who are working "for the good of people" would lose their privileges - from the minor activists in each block, to the presidents. Humans didn't adopted the medical robots, too. They could stay in each corner and heal people for free (If I remember correctly) - if it was adopted, then what the medics and the nurses would do? The syndicates would have ruled it out! :) The only inventions that humans adopted and found useful was that of micro-books, which allowed to put a book in a bead-sized grain... Sadly, the poor alien ambassador became... alienated, fell into depression and committed a suicide - because he failed to serve his purpose of advancing human technologies, his intellectual and technological superiority was useless. ... You should watch also the movie "Idiocracy". Mike:> And real world intelligence is *embodied, *massively condensed, *imaginative (whereas symbols are merely labels on >imaginative boxes).and *concept/idea-based. >All these things : >*creative >*embodied >*imaginative >*condensed >*concept/idea -based Todor: Mike, would you ever realize that I agree on that and my approach is like that? I am a universal artist, I enjoy practising and improving my skills and knowledge in all kinds of arts, and in all kinds of sciences and technologies - hard sciences, soft sciences, technical fields. Whatever, and I do improvise all the time. "All" means involving all kinds of sensory and motor modalities, all kinds of resolutions/abstractions, from specialized tasks and precise ones (such as juggling or programming, the latter is abstract and concrete in the same time) to abstract and broad such as interdisciplinary socio-linguistics, sociology, national psychology, philosophy of mind, neuroscience-to-philosophy-to-psycholinguistics-... Whatever. Mike>A This represents a field-wide massive failure to understand the nature of intelligence. I repeat: nobody in the >foreseeable future is going to produce a brain-in-the-box that can be *creative about *anything* - the simplest thing, >like what do you do if one shoelace is torn? How can you put toy blocks on top of each other higgledy-piggledy, as an > infant does, as opposed to brick wall style? A Let alone any political, psychological, medical etc etc Todor: I remember that we discussed about the toy bricks and I gave you scenarios how it could do it, your notion of "creative" is not defined well - what exactly is hard or creative about all that? If the system has the senses and memories that you/a human had in such circumstances, it would choose something appropriate. What can you do with a toelace? Or what can you do with blocks? If you have hands, that can pick, rotate, translate etc. and if you want your shoes not to fall off your feet, and depending on the environment (if you have new shoelaces around, or other shoes, etc.)... You'll synthesize and choose something of them, or you'll just recall something that you've done before, and re-apply it. In fact humans super short memory and bad introspection makes their own activities to look "magical" to themselves. You cannot explain to yourself how your imagination is driven, why you did what you do and generalize it. To make a contrast - anyone who can draw decently, can do also 3D-reconstruction from one picture by hand. If you can draw in perspective, the recovered 3D coordinates are obvious to you, you just need to input them somehow to a system that can render them, or you can mentally do the transformations and render it yourself on the paper. If you do also 3D-graphics and programming the mathematical way - there's no reason why not automating this process. It's a matter of engineering. All the data that is needed is obvious, it's in the picture, and by generalizing the border cases (which are not much) you may make it even learning from the examples. My implementation in code still waits the other general cognitive infrastructure to get completed so that it becomes self-coded, but in a non-general framework, for the sake of this specific problem it's actually solved in practical systems, for example this one, but it still requires some manual selection: 3-Sweep: Extracting Editable Objects from a Single Photo, SIGGRA http://youtu.be/Oie1ZXWceqM Regarding the "all kinds of problems" and this list context, I mean for example all kinds that we've discussed here and you've given them as challenges. For example that includes the basic tasks: - Recognition and synthesize of buildings, chairs, caricatures; the skill is developed by learning, play and observation -- That involves: -- 3D-structure and light reconstruction possible even from a single picture and uses also the experiences to fill in missing parts -- Generalization and concept forming, in this context it's about sensory and motor resolution variation, and clustering into classes of minimal structures | (I explained in the emails back then, the minimum models) -- Building towers from toy bricks :), playing with Lego and other 3D puzzles -- ===* Todor "Tosh" Arnaudov ===* * .... Twenkid Research:* http://research.twenkid.com .... *Author of the world's first University courses in AGI (2010, 2011)*: http://artificial-mind.blogspot.com/2010/04/universal-artificial-intelligence.html *.... Todor Arnaudov's Researches Blog**: * http://artificial-mind.blogspot.com * * ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-f452e424 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-58d57657 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
