p.p.s.: It would be interesting to know whether it is mathematically possible for a superintelligent AGI system to brute force into an isolated pattern space? It might be able to overcome our knowledge horizon (as Eric Drexler called it afaik) that way ... but that wouldn't be creativity ... that would be godlike and creating genuinely new stuff/universes without just pure recombination of what is already known?
On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 4:11 PM, just camel <[email protected]> wrote: > p.s.: Just try to think of a genuinely new thing that does not represent a > recombination of known patterns. You can't do it. > > I think your problem is that you fail to understand what "pattern" means > in that context? Color, smell, weight, gravity, etc. are all concepts which > consist of patterns. You will always and inevitably recombine those > concepts and patterns when being creative. No algorithm and no human being > can do more than that. Creativity is recombination of known patterns not > "inventing" new stuff. > > The invention of the wheel was only the recombination of the known > patterns "round" and "rolling" ... nothing genuinely new. The patterns > which lead to that invention had to be present and accessible for our > ancestors in order to come up with the wheel. > > And you can create an algorithm which just does recombination of known > patterns ... and Ben is doing just that. > > > On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 4:00 PM, just camel <[email protected]> wrote: > >> "A recipe can't specify a new ingredient unknown to it - can't tell you >> whether the foods in that man's shopping bag, which you can't yet see,, >> will or will not fit with steak tartare, say." >> >> Our brain can't do that either. As I stated in my previous posting: our >> brain can just recombine known patterns. I can't come up with genuinely new >> stuff which does not represent a recombination of already learned patterns. >> >> And I can write a 10 liner which will recombine already known patterns in >> new ways. If you add a (meta-)goal and some heuristics in terms of the >> process of recombination you get creativity ... >> >> Algorithms as well as our brain can recombine known patterns ... the >> brain can't use genuinely new stuff as well. >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 3:25 PM, tintner michael <[email protected] >> > wrote: >> >>> "Mike ever really care to explain why an algorithm shouldn't be able to >>> show creativity? Creativity is the semi-randomly recombination of already >>> known patterns with a certain (meta-)goal? How should that not be possible >>> via an algorithm? Maybe we can just answer that question once and for all?" >>> >>> An algo says [do] a + [do] b + [do] c = [to get] d >>> >>> A recipe says [take] a + [take] b + [take] c = [to make] d >>> >>> An algo is a fully specified and specific plan of action - a,b,c,d,e >>> etc. . There is no potential in there for producing or dealing with a new >>> element - for deriving let's say "~~~ " oer "£$" - altogether new >>> symbol/ elements, (wh. I've just identified]. >>> >>> A recipe can't specify a new ingredient unknown to it - can't tell you >>> whether the foods in that man's shopping bag, which you can't yet see,, >>> will or will not fit with steak tartare, say. >>> >>> So, in answer to Steve's request, for my next post, I will tell you how >>> you CAN produce new elements not from an algo [impossible} but from an >>> "idea" - and what an "idea" is. >>> >>> >>> . >>> >>> >>> On 3 December 2013 14:08, just camel <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Did Mike ever really care to explain why an algorithm shouldn't be able >>>> to show creativity? Creativity is the semi-randomly recombination of >>>> already known patterns with a certain (meta-)goal? How should that not be >>>> possible via an algorithm? Maybe we can just answer that question once and >>>> for all? >>>> >>>> We humans can not come up with anything genuinely new in terms of >>>> patterns - right? I can not imagine a universe obeying different laws of >>>> natures because I have no a priory knowledge about that system .... I can >>>> just imagine weird stuff based on patterns that I already learned but I can >>>> not just imagine genuinely different universe. So there is the limit of >>>> creativity which humans as well as software will have to accept? >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 2:29 PM, jay man <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Ben what is the best way to send you a PM, what is the email? Don't >>>>> worry I'm not a troll,:). BTW, so spot on with Capt. James T. Kirk >>>>> comment. >>>>> >>>>> www.livenda.com >>>>> jay >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Ben Goertzel, PhD >>>>> http://goertzel.org >>>>> >>>>> "In an insane world, the sane man must appear to be insane". -- Capt. >>>>> James T. 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