I agree that we should do our best to avoid obscure terminology, because it will make it easier for us to understand each other.
Regarding surveying the field of AGI. It seems that everyone who does such a survey talks about the cyc project (hard code all knowledge of the world into your system). It seems like this information could be useful for AGI, but of course the methodology seems fundamentally flawed since that isn't how humans acquire their knowledge. But humans are born with some knowledge of the world, for example babies are born with the ability to swim, and to avoid crawling off of cliffs and such or to put it more simply humans are born with "instincts" which can be thought of as a kind of knowledge. Perhaps we could give our AGI the cyc knowledge as "instinctual" knowledge? But we wouldn't expect our AGI to exclusively acquire knowledge in this fashion since, hardcoding all of human knowledge isn't necessary, and difficult (if not impossible). Although it is my understanding that the cyc project has begun to utilize automated means of adding knowledge to their system, and as such it isn't fair to say they only go about hardcoding knowledge of the world. Of course automated knowledge acquisition is precisely the method used by IBM's Watson. For example it read all of wikipedia and generated knowledge of the world from this. Interestingly they also read the urban dictionary, but found that it degraded the performance of their system, and so they had to "unlearn" this. Garbage in garbage out it would seem. An interesting aspect of IBM's Watson is that they do indeed use a kind of hybrid system. They have many algorithms which they use when they try to answer Jeopardy questions, and they have another system that measures the confidence of the results of each of these algorithms and the one with the highest confidence is selected as the final answer. Of course they are just doing computational linguistics, and so their system has no hope of working on non text based modalities, which is a serious limitation, and certainly an indication that it isn't really AGI. So it would seem that our system would have as a necessary requirement that it can work with all kinds of input, be it sight, sound, touch, etc. Although if it had the ability to query Watson as a module in some part of the system, it isn't immediately obvious to me that this would be a bad thing. It would just be the case that the Watson approach in and of its self is not viable for creating real AGI. If i had the ability to query google in my brain, surely google wouldn't become a kind of AGI even though it would be part of an AGI (namely me). but the essential part of the system that was creating the AGI would be my brain, not google. And so perhaps it doesn't make much sense to just wire together a bunch of non agi systems in the hopes that together they will create AGI? On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Benjamin Kapp <[email protected]> wrote: > How about we have a discussion sometime this weekend? We have some > serious timezone issues to work around.. > > On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 10:48 PM, Mark Seveland <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Just a suggestion. Google+ Meetups are a good way for everyone to meet >> each other, and in live voice and/or video chat discuss topics. >> >> On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 7:33 PM, Colin Hales <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Hi Dorian et. al., >>> I am having trouble getting time to properly participate here because of >>> family stuff and my other commitments. I'm checking in to acknowledge >>> how encouraging it is to see the activity is ongoing, and the birth of a >>> possible paper that might underpin whatever this IGI initiative turns into. >>> >>> I'd like to focus my efforts on the paper primarily as a way to discover >>> IGI directions. So if you could bear with a patchy contribution from me for >>> a little while it would be greatly appreciated. I have a particularly >>> difficult week ahead of me. There's no huge crashing need for speed here, >>> so I'm hoping slow and steady might be OK. >>> >>> Whatever form this website takes: fantastic. It may only ever be a 'line >>> in the sand'. But it's a significant one in the greater scheme of AGI >>> futures and really good to see after being sidelined for so long. Yay! >>> >>> cheers >>> Colin Hales >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 10:07 AM, Mike Archbold <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Why don't you just call it "AI" and if somebody asks THEN you can >>>> clarify it? I mean, why be arcane about it? One of the reasons I got >>>> into AI is because I don't like the way that people create things that >>>> are intentionally difficult and known only to the in-group. Now here >>>> you go with a boatload of new acronyms, known only to the select tiny >>>> group that knows the secret meaning behind it. So, I guess I am >>>> getting into Alan Grimes vent space with this. >>>> >>>> On 5/20/15, Dorian Aur <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> > *Colin et al,* >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > A possible plan for H-AGI towards S-AGI paper >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > *Hybrid artificial general intelligent systems towards S-AGI* >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > *Introduction* – a short presentation of AI systems and general goal >>>> to >>>> > build human general intelligence >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Why H-AGI? >>>> > >>>> > - Present different forms of computation , ( particular forms of >>>> > computation analog, digital -Turing machines ) >>>> > - Computations in the brain (examples of computations that are >>>> hardly >>>> > replicated on digital computers) >>>> > - H-AGI can include all forms of computations, algorithmic / >>>> > non-algorithmic, analog, digital,* quantum and classical *since >>>> > biological structure is incorporated in the system >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > *Steps to develop H-AGI* >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > - A. Build the structure using either natural stem cells or >>>> induced >>>> > pluripotent cells a three-dimensional vascularized structure, >>>> test 3D >>>> > printing possibilities >>>> > - Shape the structure and control spatial organization of cells >>>> > - Detect the need of neurotrophic factors, nutrients and oxygen >>>> ...use >>>> > nanosensor devices, carbon nanotubes... >>>> > - Regulate, control the entire phenomenon using a computer >>>> interface, >>>> > ability to use combine analog/digital and biophysical computations >>>> > >>>> > B. Train the hybrid system >>>> > >>>> > - Enhance bidirectional communication between biological structure >>>> and >>>> > computers >>>> > - Create and use a virtual world to provide accelerated training, >>>> use >>>> > machine learning, DL, digital/algorithmic AI or AGI if something >>>> is >>>> > developed on digital systems >>>> > - The interactive training system should also shape the evolution >>>> of >>>> > biological structure, natural language and visual information can >>>> be >>>> > progressively included >>>> > >>>> > see details in Can we build a conscious machine, >>>> > http://arxiv.org/abs/1411.5224 >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > *Goals of H-AGI* >>>> > >>>> > H-AGI can be seen as a transitional step required to understand >>>> which >>>> > parts can be fully replicated in a synthetic form to build a more >>>> powerful >>>> > system, >>>> > >>>> > · Natural language processing, robotics... >>>> > >>>> > · Space exploration, colonization..... etc >>>> > >>>> > · Techniques for therapy (brain diseases, cancer ....) since >>>> we will >>>> > learn how to shape biological structure >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Dorian >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > PS This brief presentation may also provide an idea about possible >>>> > collaboration list 1- list 3 >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 11:20 PM, Mike Archbold <[email protected]> >>>> > wrote: >>>> > >>>> >> > A summary ....we are looking at the idea that there are 2 >>>> fundamental >>>> >> kinds >>>> >> > of putative AGI (1) & (3), and their hybrid (2) that forms a third >>>> >> approach >>>> >> > as follows: >>>> >> > >>>> >> > (1) C-AGI computer substrate only. Neuromorphic equivalents >>>> of it. >>>> >> > (2) H-AGI hybrid of (1) and (3). The inorganic version is a >>>> new >>>> >> > kind >>>> >> > of neuromorphic chip. The organic version has ... erm... organics >>>> in >>>> >> > it. >>>> >> > (3) S-AGI synthetic AGI. organic or inorganic. Natural brain >>>> >> > physics >>>> >> > only. No computer. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > (aside: S-AGI just came out of my fingers. I hope this is OK, >>>> Dorian!) >>>> >> > >>>> >> >>>> >> This is a cool idea, somewhat mind boggling in its possibilities. >>>> >> Cool though! >>>> >> >>>> >> Personally I would favor something more like "EM-AGI" for >>>> >> electromagnetic AGI. I mean, I don't understand the details of the >>>> >> approach, only the generalities. But, "S" seems a bit >>>> vague/ambiguous >>>> >> while EM hits it more or less on target IMHO. >>>> >> >>>> >> MIke A >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> > Think this way: What we have now is 100% computer. S-AGI is 100% >>>> >> > natural >>>> >> > physics (organic or inorganic). H-AGI is set somewhere in between. >>>> >> > It's >>>> >> > the level of computer computation/natural computation that is at >>>> issue. >>>> >> All >>>> >> > are computation. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > The human brain is a natural version of (3) with a >>>> neuronal/astrocyte >>>> >> > substrate. (3) has no computer whatever in it. it retains all the >>>> >> natural >>>> >> > physics (whatever that is). H-AGI targets the inclusion of the >>>> >> > essential >>>> >> > natural brain physics in the substrate of (2) and to incorporate >>>> (1) >>>> >> > computer-substrates and software to an extent to be determined. In >>>> my >>>> >> case >>>> >> > an H-AGI would be inorganic. Others see differently. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Where you might have a stake in this? >>>> >> > >>>> >> > The history of AGI can be summed up as an experiment that seeks to >>>> see >>>> >> > if >>>> >> > the role of (1) C-AGI as a brain is fundamentally indistinguishable >>>> >> > from >>>> >> > (3) S-AGI under all conditions. That is the hypothesis. The 65 >>>> year old >>>> >> bet >>>> >> > that has attracted 100% of the investment to date. H-AGI does not >>>> make >>>> >> that >>>> >> > presupposition and seeks to contrast (1) and (3) in revealing ways >>>> that >>>> >> > then allow us to speak authoritatively about the (1)/(3) >>>> relationship >>>> >> > in >>>> >> > AGI potential. Only then will we really understand the difference >>>> >> > between >>>> >> > (1) and (3). So far that difference is entirely and intuition. A >>>> good >>>> >> one. >>>> >> > But only intuition. Its time for that intuition to be turned into >>>> >> science. >>>> >> > Experiments in (1) have ruled to date. Now we seek to do some >>>> (2)... >>>> >> > E.E. >>>> >> > we have 65 years of 'control' subject. H-AGI builds the first >>>> 'test' >>>> >> > subject. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > How about this? >>>> >> > >>>> >> > What would be super cool is if this mighty AGI beast you intend >>>> making >>>> >> > could be turned into the brain of a robot. Then we could contrast >>>> what >>>> >> > it >>>> >> > does with what an IGI candidate brain does in an identical robot >>>> in the >>>> >> > same test. That kind of testing vision (as far off as it may seem) >>>> is a >>>> >> > potential way your work and the IGI might interface. Which >>>> candidate >>>> >> robot >>>> >> > best encounters radical novelty, without any human >>>> >> intervention/involvement >>>> >> > whatever? .... is a really good question. To do this test you'd not >>>> >> > need >>>> >> to >>>> >> > reveal anything about its workings. Observed robot behaviour is >>>> >> > decisive. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > It seems to me that whatever venture you plan, it might be wise to >>>> keep >>>> >> an >>>> >> > eye on any (2)/(3) approaches. IGI or not. Because it is directly >>>> >> informing >>>> >> > expectations of outcomes in (1). We are currently asking the >>>> question >>>> >> "*If >>>> >> > H-AGI were to be championed into existence, what would the first >>>> >> > vehicle >>>> >> > for that look like?*" If the enthusiasm maintains it will be >>>> sketched >>>> >> into >>>> >> > a web page and we'll see what it tells us and what to do next. It >>>> may >>>> >> halt. >>>> >> > It may go. I don't know. Worth a shot? You bet. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > With your (1) C-AGI glasses firmly strapped to your head, your >>>> wisdom >>>> >> > at >>>> >> > all stages in this would be well received, whatever the messages. >>>> So if >>>> >> you >>>> >> > have time to keep an eye on happenings, I for one would >>>> appreciate it. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > regards >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Colin Hales >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 6:58 AM, Peter Voss <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >> > >>>> >> >> Thanks for asking. Haven’t followed the IGI discussions. >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> Is this about non-computer based approaches to AGI? If so, I >>>> don’t >>>> >> think >>>> >> >> I have anything positive to contribute. >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> More generally, non-profit orgs need strong focus and champions. >>>> And >>>> >> >> specific goals. >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> *From:* Benjamin Kapp [mailto:[email protected]] >>>> >> >> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 19, 2015 12:23 PM >>>> >> >> *To:* AGI >>>> >> >> *Subject:* Re: [agi] Institute of General Intelligence (IGI) >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> Mr. Voss, >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> Given your understanding of the AGI community do you believe an >>>> IGI >>>> >> would >>>> >> >> be redundant? Would your organization be open to collaborating >>>> with >>>> >> >> the >>>> >> >> IGI? Do you have any advice for how we could be successful in >>>> >> >> starting >>>> >> >> up >>>> >> >> this organization? Perhaps you would be open to being a member >>>> of the >>>> >> >> board? >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 2:03 PM, Peter Voss <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> Not something that can be adequately covered in a few words, but…. >>>> >> “We’re >>>> >> >> building a fully integrated, top-down & bottom-up, real-time, >>>> adaptive >>>> >> >> knowledge (& skill) representation, learning and reasoning engine. >>>> >> >> We’re >>>> >> >> using a combination of graph representation and NN techniques >>>> overlaid >>>> >> >> with >>>> >> >> fuzzy, adaptive rule systems” – ha! >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> Here again are links for some clues: >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >>>> http://www.kurzweilai.net/essentials-of-general-intelligence-the-direct-path-to-agi >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> http://www.realagi.com/index.html >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> https://www.facebook.com/groups/RealAGI/ >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> *From:* Benjamin Kapp [mailto:[email protected]] >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> Mr. Voss, >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> Since you are the founder I'm certain you know what agi-3's >>>> >> >> methodology >>>> >> >> is. In a few words (maybe more?) could you share with us what >>>> that >>>> >> >> is? >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 1:24 PM, Peter Voss <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> *>*http://www.agi-3.com They just glue together anything and >>>> >> everything >>>> >> >> that works. >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> Actually, no. We have a very specific theory of AGI and >>>> architecture >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> *Peter Voss* >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> *Founder, AGI Innovations Inc.* >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >>>> > >>>> >> >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/26973278-698fd9ee >>>> >| >>>> >> >> Modify >>>> >> >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> <http://www.listbox.com> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >>>> > >>>> >> >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/231420-b637a2b0>| >>>> >> Modify >>>> >> >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> <http://www.listbox.com> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> *AGI* | Archives < >>>> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>>> >> >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/11721311-20a65d4a> >>>> | >>>> >> >> Modify >>>> >> >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> >>>> >> >> Your Subscription <http://www.listbox.com> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > ------------------------------------------- >>>> >> > AGI >>>> >> > Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >>>> >> > RSS Feed: >>>> >> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/11943661-d9279dae >>>> >> > Modify Your Subscription: >>>> >> > https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >>>> >> > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >>>> >> > >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> ------------------------------------------- >>>> >> AGI >>>> >> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >>>> >> RSS Feed: >>>> >> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/17795807-366cfa2a >>>> >> Modify Your Subscription: >>>> >> https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >>>> >> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >>>> >> >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > ------------------------------------------- >>>> > AGI >>>> > Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >>>> > RSS Feed: >>>> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/11943661-d9279dae >>>> > Modify Your Subscription: >>>> > https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >>>> > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------- >>>> AGI >>>> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >>>> RSS Feed: >>>> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/11721311-20a65d4a >>>> Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >>>> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >>>> >>> >>> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/27079473-66e47b26> | >>> Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Regards, >> Mark Seveland >> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/26973278-698fd9ee> | >> Modify >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> >> Your Subscription <http://www.listbox.com> >> > > ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-f452e424 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-58d57657 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
