On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 10:21 AM, Steve Richfield <[email protected] > wrote:
> Jim, > > I'm trying to "get my arms around" what you are saying here. I'll make some > probably "off the mark" comments in the hopes that you will clarify your > statement... > > On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 2:38 AM, Jim Bromer <[email protected]> wrote: > >> you would have to put some thought into how a programmer can design a test >> for self-organization. It is a subtle question. >> > > I agree. Do you have any thoughts about how to go about this? > > Steve > Discussing the fine distinctions between the nature of self organizing and other kinds of organizing principles could become like the discussions about free will vs determinism. So a little can go a long way as long as it is interesting. Minsky said (something to the effect) that computers are capable of appearing as if they had free will because of the number of possibilities that they could work with would be so great. Programmed computers are capable of appearing as if they were behaving in non-programmed ways because they are capable of learning through input-output in ways the AGI programmer could not anticipate and the possible combinations of behaviors is so great that they can appear as if they were self-directed. Suppose a person with strident opinions is absolutely unable to learn that a apparent either-or paradox might be explained with references to multiple dynamic objects (like variable objects) of reference regardless of the efforts to explain this to him. Is that opinionated person exhibiting true self-direction? We would say yes, but a computer that is unable to be affected by input is also incapable being convinced. Is that kind of program then self-directed just as the closed minded person is? Of course not, the difference is that we are able to see the opinionated person adapt to new ideas in some other situations even if in this one case he seems to be absolutely stuck in his binary paradox. We wouldn't see that other side of a tight program. What if the program is able to react to some (say some simple) input for short periods of time but then reverts back to the initial programming. Is that program capable of self-direction? Again we would say no because there are no long-term changes that you can reliably test over a period of time. (We would be more certain if we knew that it was reverting back to its original limited programming.) Do colonies of simple one-celled bacteria exhibit self-organization? Colonies of simple viruses? Do chemical compounds exhibit self-organization? You have to explain what you are thinking of a little better. Once you go into more detail you will probably need to describe some 'problem' or situation and the environment that this self-organization would take place in. Jim Bromer ------------------------------------------- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
