Couple of quick comments (I'm still thinking about all this - but I'm confident everything AGI links up here).
A fluid schema is arguably by its v. nature a method - a trial and error, arguably universal method. It links vision to the hand or any effector. Handling objects also is based on fluid schemas - you put out a fluid adjustably-shaped hand to grasp things. And even if you don't have hands, like a worm, and must grasp things with your body, and must "grasp" the ground under which you move, then too you must use fluid body schemas/maps. All concepts - the basis of language and before language, all intelligence - are also almost certainly fluid schemas (and not as you suggested, patterns). All creative problemsolving begins from concepts of what you want to do (and not formulae or algorithms as in rational problemsolving). Any suggestion to the contrary will not, I suggest, bear the slightest serious examination. **Fluid schemas/concepts/fluid outlines are attempts-to-grasp-things - "gropings".** Point 2 : I'd relook at your assumptions in all your musings - my impression is they all assume, unwittingly, an *adult* POV - the view of s.o. who already knows how to see - as distinct from an infant who is just learning to see and "get to grips with" an extremely blurred world, (even more blurred and confusing, I wouldn't be surprised, than that Prakash video). You're unwittingly employing top down, fully-formed-intelligence assumptions even while overtly trying to produce a learning system - you're looking for what an adult wants to know, rather than what an infant starting-from-almost-no-knowledge-of-the-world wants to know. If you accept the point in any way, major philosophical rethinking is required. From: David Jones Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 1:56 PM To: agi Subject: Re: [agi] Re: Huge Progress on the Core of AGI Mike, On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 6:52 PM, Mike Tintner <[email protected]> wrote: Isn't the first problem simply to differentiate the objects in a scene? Well, that is part of the movement problem. If you say something moved, you are also saying that the objects in the two or more video frames are the same instance. (Maybe the most important movement to begin with is not the movement of the object, but of the viewer changing their POV if only slightly - wh. won't be a factor if you're "looking" at a screen) Maybe, but this problem becomes kind of trivial in a 2D environment, assuming you don't allow rotation of the POV. Moving the POV would simply translate all the objects linearly. If you make it a 3D environment, it becomes significantly more complicated. I could work on 3D, which I will, but I'm not sure I should start there. I probably should consider it though and see what complications it adds to the problem and how they might be solved. And that I presume comes down to being able to put a crude, highly tentative, and fluid outline round them (something that won't be neces. if you're dealing with squares?) . Without knowing v. little if anything about what kind of objects they are. As an infant most likely does. {See infants' drawings and how they evolve v. gradually from a v. crude outline blob that at first can represent anything - that I'm suggesting is a "replay" of how visual perception developed). The fluid outline or image schema is arguably the basis of all intelligence - just about everything AGI is based on it. You need an outline for instance not just of objects, but of where you're going, and what you're going to try and do - if you want to survive in the real world. Schemas connect everything AGI. And it's not a matter of choice - first you have to have an outline/sense of the whole - whatever it is - before you can start filling in the parts. Well, this is the question. The solution is underdetermined, which means that a right solution is not possible to know with complete certainty. So, you may take the approach of using contours to match objects, but that is certainly not the only way to approach the problem. Yes, you have to use local features in the image to group pixels together in some way. I agree with you there. Is using contours the right way? Maybe, but not by itself. You have to define the problem a little better than just saying that we need to construct an outline. The real problem/question is this: "How do you determine the uncertainty of a hypothesis, lower it and also determine how good a hypothesis is, especially in comparison to other hypotheses?" So, in this case, we are trying to use an outline comparison to determine the best match hypotheses between objects. But, that doesn't define how you score alternative hypotheses. That also is certainly not the only way to do it. You could use the details within the outline too. In fact, in some situations, this would be required to disambiguate between the possible hypotheses. P.S. It would be mindblowingly foolish BTW to think you can do better than the way an infant learns to see - that's an awfully big visual section of the brain there, and it works. I'm not trying to "do better" than the human brain. I am trying to solve the same problems that the brain solves in a different way, sometimes better than the brain, sometimes worse, sometimes equivalently. What would be foolish is to assume the only way to duplicate general intelligence is to copy the human brain. By taking this approach, you are forced to reverse engineer and understand something that is extremely difficult to reverse engineer. In addition, a solution that using the brain's design may not be economically feasible. So, approaching the problem by copying the human brain has additional risks. You may end up figuring out how the brain works and not be able to use it. In addition might not end up with a good understanding of what other solutions might be possible. Dave agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription ------------------------------------------- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
