You might expand your "thinking out of the box" process to realize several points, not excused by hanging out a "newcomers label".
First, this is not a "creative or problem solving" session you are broadcasting to, and in fact, your critical comments (not based on lots of experience with the program) could be viewed by other newcomers or browsers as "truth" and thus detract from Tomasz' marketing his program, which is his livelihood. Second, if you spent some time reading instead of criticizing, you would notice that a "norm" here (you understand norms of groups, yes?) is that suggestions for improvement can be made in several ways, but carry the most credibility when they are phrased politely, do not detract, and have also been sent to the suggestions email address so they can be logged in. You will find that newcomers are welcome and receive TONS of help and support, but that newcomers who burst in and throw arguments around, in the guise of "logical debate" will fare less well. >From your comments, you sound like you get to the logic of things, in which case, instead of trying to win a debate with the author of the program (or even in response to this reply), you might pose your comments in pro and con format, illustrating the benefits and costs, and trying persuasion instead of assertion. This usually works well. Ken -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of brian.z123 Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 10:47 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [amibroker] Re: Indicator Maintenance Hello Tomasz, Thanks for your reply and consideration of my points. I made it quite clear that I was referring to 'industry standard' features that are lacking in the program in general and the workspace in particular so it is not a fair response that you only refer to a few particular features that are actually available in one 'pane' of the workspace alone. I specifically acknowledged that I was wearing my 'new user' hat and that my arguments were 'off the top of my head' (it is generally accepted in 'creative or problem solving' sessions that it is best not to censor the output in the intitial phase). I don't think you will find one single example in any post I have made in any forum where I have failed to back up my opening 'silly' statements if challenged (there are one or two exceptions where I withdrew but that was done to protect others, not me). I also already conceded; 'That (my comments are) of course ... only a personal opinion and perhaps my views will change as I spend more time in the program.' Ergonomics is a relatively new word. One way it is used is as a measure of 'energy efficiency within work processes'. That is what I meant when I used it and within the context of computer programs my measure of ergonomic efficiency is the number of mouse clicks required to perform a set task and also the ease with which we can replicate that task at a later date (from memory?) My Office assistant is turned off and always has been. I stand by my comments that AB lacks ergonomics, training and detail in part or partss. My Proposition: My proposition is that 'Microsoft like' GUI operating features are a defacto industry standard (sorry Mac, Linux users etc - I don't know anything about those systems). My expectation of programs is that they will equal or surpass the 'industry standard'. Of course that is a very general statement that can't be easily debated without specific examples and in this case I didn't provide any. All I ask, at any time, is that each suggestion is considered on its own merit and not 'marked' according to the status of the poster or the prejudices of individual forum members. My confidence in that area is a little down at the moment. Re: a specific example from within the database of existing posts ****************************************************************** Post #195 from the feedback center. subject - delete old databases from file menu I said: Consider selection of partial deletions for anything than can be separated out i.e retain data and delete categories (broker workspace) and vice-versa, layouts? Reason. Easy management of old/trial databases. Allow removal of parts of database that are known to be incorrect while retaining other parts. If database is current or default AB will 'know' and make announcement and/or adjustment. You said: REPLY by Tomasz Janeczko status - Closed Status - Functionality exists If you mean most recently used database list in File menu - non- existing folders ALREADY gets deleted from the menu. Just delete the directory using Windows explorer and next time you run AmiBroker it won't show up in the File menu. ******************************************************************* Admittedly I did not explain myself very well at the feedback center, but I did follow up later with an email via support that clarified and detailed my case. You could have also asked for further clarification at the feedback center if you weren't sure what I meant. What is the 'industry standard' for file management within programs? Go to the program file menu and delete the old program files/databases that the user no longer requires. View all of the program files/databases in a hierarchical tree and enact commands from there. What is the AB standard? Close AB (or go out of AB?), go to Windows Explorer and delete old databases from there. What specific delete features could AB provide that MS can not be expected to? If the user attempts to delete a database that is selected in AB preferences as the default, Windows Explorer will not delete it. If file/delete existed in AB the user could be given a message 'this database can not be deleted as it is the default. To delete this database go to tools etc'. The AB database folder also contains components that have extra relevance to the user. The user might want to keep the symbol lists/categories and just delete all price data. File/delete in AB could provide users with appropriate delete options to do that type of thing and also warn as to the consequences of each action. The above, existing case, is a reasonable example of the 'industry standard'/AB gap. At the least it is worthy of consideration and discussion. If I don't post any new examples in the future it will only be because I choose to conserve my energy and/or that I am not entirely comfortable in the feedback center (it is not democratic enough for my liking). Regards, BrianB2. --- In [email protected], "Tomasz Janeczko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > In my opinion AB lacks many of the ergonomic features that have > > become defacto industry standards elsewhere e.g. database > > management, file and folder management (copy, paste, delete, drag & > > drop, autobackup/recovery, right click properties, exchange formula > > files etc). > > What? Delete, drag drop, move (rename), new file/new folder > and all file functions are available > from Chart menu. TO drag-drop file from one folder to another use > RIGHT MOUSE BUTTON DRAG (not left - left is used for chart overlay). > > > However Tomasz didn't appear to be amenable to ergonomic suggestions. > > You are here way too short to say things like that. Newcomers are so quick to judge. > > Go watch the history of the software. I have implemented tens of thousands > of improvements. Including 'ergonomic' ones. > Go to Release Notes document and see the list of improvements > that were just added over last 5 years (note that AB is around for 11 years) > > Also what is ergononic for you it is not ergonomic for somebody else. > For example, I hate ergonomic in the "Office Assistant"-way. This is kind of "ergonomic" > is counter-productive. And I know lots of people who think the same. > > Give yourself at least ONE YEAR of AmiBroker experience and THEN start > talking about ergonomics. You will soon find that things are more well-thought that > you ever dreamt about. > > Best regards, > Tomasz Janeczko > amibroker.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brian.z123" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 1:59 AM > Subject: [amibroker] Re: Indicator Maintenance > > > > Hello John. > > > > Valuing the benefits of community effort, and wanting to contribute > > something in that area, I recently promised/threatened Tomasz I > > would make some suggestions through the eyes of a new user, while I > > was fresh to the program. > > I did this mainly through the feedback centre (as BrianB2) and took > > the approach of throwing the suggestions up on a first response > > basis without too much censorship. > > I was always prepared to do the hard work of translating those > > suggestions into researched proposals and expanding the scope if > > asked. > > > > My main reason for coming to AB was because of it's hardcore > > analytical and trading features, and my opinion is that this is it's > > main area of strength. > > However most of my suggestions, as a new user, eventually aligned > > themselves under three headings; training, detailing and ergonomics. > > Obviously 'new users' are not in a position to comment on the core > > analytical features. > > In my opinion AB lacks many of the ergonomic features that have > > become defacto industry standards elsewhere e.g. database > > management, file and folder management (copy, paste, delete, drag & > > drop, autobackup/recovery, right click properties, exchange formula > > files etc). > > This is particularly evident in the workspace environment. > > I personally find this very frustrating as manually managing > > maintenance duties takes a lot of energy and focus away from system > > design/testing and ultimately trading. > > In view of what is at stake I believe these features are more > > important in 'trading' programs than they are in everyday programs. > > > > However Tomasz didn't appear to be amenable to ergonomic suggestions. > > My understanding is that they are not aligned to his design > > philosophy for the program, but he might like to comment on that for > > himself. > > As a matter of principle I do respect the right of any business > > owner to live and die by their own philosophies. > > On that basis I agreed to disagree and moved on. > > I do think there is a danger, for AB, in that if other programs come > > along that match AB's analytical power while also offering ergonomic > > features, AB may notbe able to maintain its competitive place in the > > market. > > That of course is only a personal opinion and perhaps my views will > > change as I spend more time in the program. > > There are also a lot of ifs in that proposition. > > > > Providing Tomasz does agree to a re-design of the > > workspace/preference setting features I would definitely help by > > doing some homework and submitting some considered suggestions. > > > > Thanks for your efforts. > > I am generally supportive of positive and pro-active people. > > > > Regards, > > > > BrianB2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "John R" <jr-ta@> wrote: > >> > >> Having just corrupted some of my indicators yet again I thought I > > would post > >> some personal observations and suggested improvements on AB > > indicator > >> maintenance. I am posting here rather than direct to the AB > > suggestions box > >> to get the POV of other users. Hopefully others may be able to > > offer some > >> tips on best practice or point out the error of my ways and also > > if enough > >> users chime in we can then compile a list of agreed suggestions > > for TJ to > >> consider. > >> > >> OK here are my observations:- > >> > >> It is *far* too easy to corrupt indicators without even realising > > it. I bet > >> nearly everyone has done this. For those who think you have never > > done it > >> try checking thru the code of all your custom and builtin > > indicators and see > >> if they contain what you expect ;-) > >> > >> In the early days of AB when we only had slots for a few custom > > indicators > >> (20 was it?) maintenance was not a problem. But with large and > > increasing > >> numbers of indicators I find accurate maintenance a real problem. > > In > >> addition we have systems, explorations, scans, filters and those > > which do > >> combinations. Over time I have tried various methods of file > > suffixes, > >> prefixes, directories etc. to try and keep things under control > > but never > >> been entirely happy with it. My feeling is there must be a better > > more > >> organised solution with maybe separate directories for these > > specified via > >> Preferences. > >> > >> One of the big problems I have is indicators getting out of sync > > with the > >> corresponding .afl file on disk. For example it is very easy to > > make an > >> amendment to an indicator while testing visually via charts/guru > > commentary > >> and forget to save to the correct afl file on disk. Later when I > > come to > >> system test and copy/paste the code into test afl from disk I get > > unexpected > >> results. BTW I am sure the endless copy/edit/paste operations will > > eventally > >> drive me to complete baldness - my background is in commericial IT > > systems > >> development so it goes very much against the grain when you cannot > > define a > >> formula/module just once and then just refrence it wherever > > required. TJ > >> has said he will add this facility but will I have any hair left > > by then ;^) > >> > >> > >> Suggested improvements:- > >> > >> In IB add a Copy button to enable a new version of an indictaor to > > be > >> created quickly. Default new name = old name with numeric suffice > > e.g. > >> HolyGrail[2] > >> > >> In indicator browse list add columns for date and time last > > modified. Allow > >> sorting on name column or date and time. At present you cannot > > check dates > >> or easily determine which indciators you were last working on. > >> > >> In indicator browse list add columns for In quick list, Uses > > builtin code, > >> Use formula only. At present you must laboriously click down thru > > every list > >> item to determine these. > >> > >> Provide some protection or warning to prevent unintentional > > overwriting when > >> using Load. > >> > >> IMO indicators should be directly related by filename to the > > corresponding > >> disk file. For example the indicator HolyGrail7 is defined via the > > disk file > >> HolyGrail7.afl Ideally AB preferences would specify the directory > > name(s) > >> for custom and standard indicators. This would prevent many > > maintenance > >> problems that the current architecture invites and would also > > facilitate > >> many other maintance operations (see below). > >> > >> Facility to bulk load indicators from disk files into AB. i.e. > > browse and > >> select multiple .afl disk files which are then loaded into > > corresponding > >> custom or builtin indicator names. > >> > >> Facility to bulk copy indicators from AB to disk files i.e. > > browse and > >> select multiple AB indictors which are then copied to selected > > windows > >> directory. > >> > >> Allow the default directories for custom and bulitin indicators to > > be > >> specified via Preferences. Maybe also systems, explorations, > > scans....? > >> > >> > >> All POVs welcome. > >> > >> John > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please note that this group is for discussion between users only. > > > > To get support from AmiBroker please send an e-mail directly to > > SUPPORT {at} amibroker.com > > > > For other support material please check also: > > http://www.amibroker.com/support.html > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please note that this group is for discussion between users only. To get support from AmiBroker please send an e-mail directly to SUPPORT {at} amibroker.com For other support material please check also: http://www.amibroker.com/support.html Yahoo! Groups Links Please note that this group is for discussion between users only. To get support from AmiBroker please send an e-mail directly to SUPPORT {at} amibroker.com For other support material please check also: http://www.amibroker.com/support.html Yahoo! 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