Benjamin Kaduk <ka...@mit.edu> wrote:
    >> + directly.  This is because BRSKI pledges MUST use the CSR Attributes

    > (This may not need to be a 2119 MUST since we cite 7030.)

It turns out, in pracice, that many EST clients do not use the CSR
Attributes, so I need this line as a hammer.

    >> > "intended" implies that the EST server has some knowledge of what
    >> the > pledge is expected to be doing in the network, right?
    >> 
    >> Yes.  The ACP document is quite specific about the (rfc822Name)
    >> attributes to assign.  Certainly the attributes could include stuff
    >> like "ve608.core1.tor1.example.net" if the Registrar knew how this
    >> device was to be used, but more likely that would be set up
    >> afterwards.

    > Hmm, maybe later when we say "the local infrastructure (EST server)
    > informs the pledge of the proper fields to include in the generated
    > CSR" we could reiterate that the EST server has local configuration
    > information to inform this messaging, though it's probably not
    > necessary.

I've added the ().

+          fields to include in the generated CSR (such as rfc822Name). 

    doc> To alleviate these operational difficulties, the pledge MUST request
    doc> the EST "CSR Attributes" from the EST server and the EST server
    doc> needs to be able to reply with the attributes necessary for use of
    doc> the certificate in its intended protocols/services.  This approach
    doc> allows for minimal CA integrations and instead the local
    doc> infrastructure (EST server) informs the pledge of the proper fields
    doc> to include in the generated CSR.  This approach is beneficial to
    doc> automated boostrapping in the widest number of environments.
    >> 
    >> > This is convenient, but has some security considerations in that it
    >> > implies that the validation policy on the CA is somewhat lax, since
    >> the > EST server is expected to be doing most of the policy controls.
    >> Thus, > a compromised pledge/device could send a CSR with unauthorized
    >> fields > and it is likely to be signed, allowing for some level of
    >> privilege > escalation.  When the registrar acts as a proxy to the CA
    >> as well as > its EST role, as described later, this risk is
    >> diminished.
    >> 
    >> I don't really understand.  EST servers are Registration Authorities,
    >> and they have some kind of priviledged access to the CA, and are
    >> mandated to check the CSR.  I expected to find a statement to this
    >> effect in RFC7030, in section 4.2.1, but I don't see any particularly
    >> strong language.  This seems like a quality of implementation issue in
    >> the Registrar.

    > The high-level intended workflow described here is roughly "(1) pledge
    > asks registrar for config; (2) pledge puts that config in a CSR, signs
    > the CSR, and sends the CSR to registrar; (3) registrar passes CSR to CA
    > using registrar's implicit authority.  We don't describe any crypto to
    > check that (2) happens as intended, as opposed to the pledge
    > dishonestly claiming "oh, and I'm a CA" or "I can provide all ACP
    > services, even privileged ones", so that has to be done by policy in
    > the registrar, as you note.  I'm wary of suggesting the workflow that
    > relies on the registrar's implicit authority at the CA without also
    > noting the registrar's policy enforcement obligations.  Though it's
    > possible this is covered elsewhere and doesn't need to be duplicated
    > here.

I think it goes back to the RA and more specifically, the CA, being boss of
what going into a certificate.   To the point where it generally seems really
hard to deploy new extensions in the public WebPKI.

It does say:

          <t>The registrar MUST also confirm that the resulting CSR is 
formatted as
          indicated before forwarding the request to a CA. If the registrar is
          communicating with the CA using a protocol such as full CMC, which
          provides mechanisms to override the CSR attributes, then these
          mechanisms MAY be used even if the client ignores CSR Attribute
          guidance.</t>

    >> > Section 7
    >> 
    >> > If this is non-normative and will need to be fleshed out in a
    >> separate > document, would an Appendix be more appropriate?
    >> 
    >> Section 9 and 10 refer back to this section in a normative fashion.

    > Er, wouldn't that make this section no longer non-normative?  (Not that
    > I could find the references you're talking about, so a clue bat is
    > welcome.)

It's of the form, "if you wish to do X, then you MUST do Y"
(but, X is not a MUST).

section 9:
   In recognition of this, some mechanisms are presented in
   Section 7.2.  The manufacturer MUST provide at least one of the one-
   touch mechanisms described that permit enrollment to be proceed
   without availability of any manufacturer server (such as the MASA).

    >> > I think this is maybe more of a "does not enforce" than "does not >
    >> know", since the domainID ends up in the audit logs that the MASA >
    >> holds.
    >> 
    >> Yes, but the domainID does not directly identify the Registrar by
    >> name.  Assuming a database breach, what does the MASA know that it can
    >> reveal.

    > can reveal or be correlated with other sources of information.  The
    > domainID is derived from the public part of a certificate, which could
    > well be widely disseminated.  An attacker that compromises the MASA and
    > retains a presence can watch requests come in and backsolve from
    > domainID to certificate directly.

Right, so that's 11.4.3, where the attacker controls the web server.
At which point, they don't need to compromise the database, I think, as they
can just access it.  I think of a database dump as being offline: I get
access to your backups, or I find an SQL injection attack that exfiltrates
data, but does not give me control.

    >> > A nonceless voucher can still include an expiration time ... it is
    >> just > in practice possible for it to never expire, if the target
    >> pledge does > not have an accurate clock.
    >> 
    >> Yes, that's correct.  How many devices with RTCs survive 10 years in a
    >> warehouse with no power? :-)

    > The ones with a radioisotope thermoelectric generator? ;)

So RTCs with RTGs.
Apparently not much plutonium is left for future missions.

    >> fixed.
    >> 
    >> > Section 9
    >> 
    doc> The autonomic control plane that this document provides bootstrap
    doc> for is typically a medium to large Internet Service Provider
    doc> organization, or an equivalent Enterprise that has signficant
    doc> layer-3 router connectivity.  (A network consistenting of primarily
    doc> layer-2
    >> 
    >> > nit: "is used in" -- the ACP is not the entire organization!
    >> 
    >> The text doesn't have "is used in"

    > (Right, I was saying that you should add it.  But the reworking fixes
    > the nit, so this is all good.)

got it.

    doc> There are a number of design choices that mitigate this risk.  The
    doc> domain can maintain some privacy since it has not necessarily been
    doc> authenticated and is not authoritatively bound to the supply chain.
    >> 
    >> > Is this really "privacy" or just "semi-plausible deniability"?
    >> 
    >> It's a good question.  A domain could use a new certificate for each
    >> device, could connect via some onion router.  Is that privacy, or
    >> "semi-plausible deniability"?

    > It might depend on the details of the certificates used, what CA issued
    > them (and its policies regarding accuracy and level of detail in
    > certificates issued therefrom), and whether the certifciates are
    > used/exposed for any other purposes.  So, I don't insist on any
    > specific language, and was just sharing my thoughts about how it is
    > possible to think about this, in case it sparked any insight.

Agreed.
I think that it's hard problem.

    doc> The above situation is to be distinguished from a residential/
    doc> individual person who registers a device from a manufacturer: that
    doc> an enterprise/ISP purchases routing products is hardly worth
    doc> mentioning.  Deviations would, however, be notable.
    >> 
    >> > Deviations in what sense?
    >> 
    >> After buying only Cisco equipment (like ASR 9000) [observed by number
    >> of MASA connections after each POP turn up], ISP example.net suddendly
    >> has started communicating with Juniper's MASA (for MX40s..).

    > So like "deviations from a historical trend" or "deviations from an
    > established baseline"?

added that text.

    >> > Section 10.3
    >> 
    doc> 4.  There is a fourth case, if the manufacturer is providing
    doc> protection against stolen devices.  The manufacturer then has a
    doc> responsability to protect the legitimate owner against fraudulent
    doc> claims that the the equipment was stolen.  Such a claim would cause
    doc> the manufacturer to refuse to issue a new voucher.  Should the
    doc> device go through a deep factory reset (for instance, replacement of
    doc> a damaged main board component, the device would not bootstrap.
    >> 
    >> > I'm not sure I understand this scenario -- is it talking about where
    >> a > third party makes a false theft report in the hopes that the real
    >> owner > will have to do a deep reset and then have the device fail to
    >> bootstrap > because of the reported theft?
    >> 
    >> Yes.

    > I think having "In the absence of such manufacturer protection, such a
    > claim would cause [...]" would have helped me get there.

added.

    doc> registrar.  This is mandated anyway because of the operational
    doc> benefits of an informed administrator in cases where the failure is
    doc> indicative of a problem.  The registrar is RECOMMENDED to verify
    doc> MASA
    >> 
    >> > I'd also expect some comment about the limited value of the
    >> additional > information to an attacker in the context where the
    >> attacker already > would know [other information].
    >> 
    >> I'm not sure what other "other information" is yet, so I don't know
    >> how to fill that in.

    > IIUC, this text is predicated on a "possibly malicious registrar" that
    > a pledge tries to register using/through but fails.  So that registrar
    > is already in a position where the pledge would try to use it -- in the
    > ACP case, that probably means fairly physically proximate, and maybe
    > implies a link-local connection.

Agreed. In the ACP case, imagine an ISP border router on which there are a 
number
of links; some of which are internal (legitimate Join Proxy), and some of
which are external links to another ISP's border router (Q).  The Join Proxy
on Q really doesn't know if the purpose of that link has changed from
external to internal.  That's exactly the case of a non-malicious mistake
in finding the right network.

    > In the non-ACP case, maybe it also
    > implies proximity?  I don't know if we can get physical vs. network
    > proximity implied by a pledge trying to use a registrar, but maybe
    > sometimes.  My implied question is basically "what else would an
    > attacker have to do to get a pledge to try to use it as a registrar,
    > and what does the attacker already have access to by the time it gets
    > that far?"  So we can set the information learned from voucher parsing
    > status reports in the context of what else the attacker would already
    > know.  But I don't have the best picture on the deployment scenarios
    > here, so I can't answer the question myself :)

We left the warning there so that the people writing code would think about
this tuscle. My opinion that security paranoia has often gotten in the way of
building debuggable security systems that actually work.  

    doc> this might be an issue during disaster recovery.  This risk can be
    doc> mitigated by Registrars that request and maintain long term copies
    doc> of "nonceless" vouchers.  In that way they are guaranteed to be able
    doc> to bootstrap their devices.
    >> 
    >> > This, of course, comes with a different risk of what is something
    >> like > a long-term credential existing that needs to be protected and
    >> stored.
    >> 
    >> I partially agree.  Long-term nonceless vouchers still pin a specific
    >> domainID.  So they need to available, but they don't need to be
    >> private.

    > It's not entirely clear to me that it's okay to make them totally
    > public (but maybe I am missing something).  That is, in that once the
    > voucher is public, anyone who can get next to the device can
    > re-bootstrap it using that voucher, which possibly gets it into a
    > configuration that's not usable in its current location, and (less
    > likely) maybe it's hard for the real owner to get the correct
    > configuration back (if the original MASA is gone or whatever).  So the
    > voucher is not something I'd want to just put on a public web site.
    > But I guess maybe you don't have to protect it to the same extent that
    > you do your crypto keys.

Not anyone can use the nonceless voucher to bootstrap a device.
If it did, then that would be a bearer voucher ("cash")
It still pins a specific domain CA ("pay $X to Mr. Y").
It's a public document in the same sense that a public key is.

    >> > This gets a bit more complicated to reason about when we assume that
    >> a > pledge will have multiple voucher requests out in parallel,
    >> instead of > doing them in sequence and timing out (so that there is
    >> literally only > one valid nonce at a given time)...
    >> 
    >> Agreed.  But, we think that doing things serially has too much
    >> potential to run into head-of-queue challenges; the risk is that if
    >> devices don't onboard relatively quickly, then BRSKI will get turned
    >> off, not used, or the vendor might provide some "backdoor"

    > That's a fair concern, but in and of itself is not an excuse to skip
    > reasoning through the risks of the parallel workflow.  How much effort
    > has already been spent doing that reasoning through?  For example, one
    > might want to require that the pledge track which nonce belongs to the
    > voucher request submitted through which candidate registrar, but I
    > didn't work through whether that actually will defend against any
    > attack scenarios.

Each attempt needs to use a distinct nonce.
I thought we said that.  
We say that in section 11, but I've added it to 4.1.

    >> I have dug around cabforum.org and root-servers.org for some
    >> references on what a "well-run secure CA" should be
    >> doing... surprisingly I didn't find an RFC, or one for DNSSEC root
    >> operation. Did I miss them?  I thought that there was one.  I'm
    >> writing some text, and I'll finish this email here, and post the
    >> resulting text.

    > I think I had always assumed this was part of the CA/B forum baseline
    > requirements (https://cabforum.org/baseline-requirements-documents/)
    > but never actually looked. :-/ We could ask around if it's important
    > (but I don't think there's an RFC).

I will save it for an operational document.

-- 
]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh networks [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        |    IoT architect   [
]     m...@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails    [


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