Missatge de Xavi Ivars <xavi.iv...@gmail.com> del dia dc., 3 de febr. 2021 a les 1:10:
> Hèctor, please correct me if I am wrong. > > In Catalan, for example, we have gender annotated for proper nouns, > because as Hèctor explained, it's useful in the some cases when translating > to French. So Catalan monolingual generates rich tags for np. > > However, when translating to Spanish, that information (from Catalan) is > not that useful, so we didn't bother adding genders there. And the way we > managed it was adding RL rules both in spa and cat that consume > "genderless" nps, regardless of how they are generated. > > So I can think that could be an approach: annotate only when output is > useful, but account for simpler input when generating. > > Well, I would say that when translating between Spanish and Catalan (as happens when translating between French and Occitan or Arpitan, or between Italian and Sardinian) is that the minority language calques a lot the majority one. So genders are less necessary when translating between Spanish and Catalan because everything works OK in 99% of cases if we maintain the source gender of proper names; nor an article has to be added or removed because the construction is the same in Catalan and Spanish. This is not the case when working e.g. between Catalan and French or Italian, although they are also very close languages (and even in some aspects arguably Catalan is closer to French than to Spanish). For instance, something as trivial as "a Citroën" is not a problem for the Spanish-Catalan pair, but it is in the French-Catalan or Italian-Catalan (as "Citroën" currently lacks gender in the Catalan monodix precisely because it has no importance when translating into Spanish). Hèctor > -- > Xavi Ivars > < http://xavi.ivars.me > > > El dt., 2 de febr. 2021, 22:40, Kevin Brubeck Unhammer <unham...@fsfe.org> > va escriure: > >> Hèctor Alòs i Font <hectoralos-re5jqeeqqe8avxtiumw...@public.gmane.org> >> čálii: >> >> > I am more sceptical about the need to distinguish between toponyms and >> > hydronyms. In some languages one will have an article and the other will >> > not, but these are rare cases. On the other hand, we do not distinguish >> > between countries (or regions) and cities, which in French is quite >> > important both for generating the article and the preposition preceding >> it, >> > if you translate from Catalan or Spanish: for instance, "New-York" is >> the >> > city, but "le New-York" is the state, so will have "à New-York" or "au >> > New-York" for "in New-York" (or "à Paris" but "en France"). The >> generation >> > of articles may also not be the same whether "Barcelona" stands for the >> > city or the (football or whatever) team, nor is the gender often the >> same. >> > So, are we then going to create more and more subtypes ad nauseam? >> Better >> > not! >> > >> > In short, we can find casuistries in certain pairs that may make us >> think >> > that some distinctions are appropriate, but adding them in monolingual >> > dictionaries and forcing them to be maintained for all languages seems >> > doubtful to me. >> >> So the city-vs-region distinction is only useful for target (structural) >> generation, not source analysis/disambiguation/anaphora. I think that >> can be a good guide to when something should be in monodixen or not. >> >> One solution here would be to add it in bidix (with a pardef so you >> don't need it when going the other way) and strip it in transfer, or >> even just use a def-list in the transfer files. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Apertium-stuff mailing list >> Apertium-stuff@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apertium-stuff >> > _______________________________________________ > Apertium-stuff mailing list > Apertium-stuff@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apertium-stuff >
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