I'll address each point separately. > First you suggest members should keep ignorance, then you question members' > integrity, you simply do not trust the membership, do you?
I trust the membership system. As for trusting individual members, I cannot say whether or not I do trust them as I have not had dealings with the vast majority of the 9500 APNIC members. There are, however, some members whose integrity can be called into question. > LARUS works with clients from over 60 countries of different cultural > backgrounds, we do not judge, to decide our customer's value, opinions, > instead, we respect their rights to have their views. > And we believe exactly because of this diversity, a single internet could > exist to this day, otherwise, we will have no internet by now. You preach that you claim for a "free internet", yet some of your clients that you support (China Telecommunications Group and China Mobile to name some, based on information on your website) are state-sponsored telecommunications carriers who are known to censor internet access. This is public knowledge. > By the way, which client of ours do you have problems with? I haven't had dealings with your clients so I cannot state with any certainty whether or not I would have problems with them. > Yes, we have IP addresses worth some money, but do every APNIC member, are > you suggesting anyone holding an IP address is conflicted to contribute to > the governance of APNIC? > You want to forbid all APNIC members to participate? No, I do not, because the vast majority of members who hold IP resources use them for the purposes in which they told APNIC they would use them and didn't obtain them under false pretenses. Regards, Christopher H. ________________________________ From: Lu Heng <h...@anytimechinese.com> Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2023 7:19 PM To: Christopher Hawker <ch...@thesysadmin.dev> Cc: David Conrad <d...@virtualized.org>; Dilip Kounmany <dlilipk2...@gmail.com>; apnic-talk@lists.apnic.net <apnic-talk@lists.apnic.net> Subject: Re: [apnic-talk] Re: Feedback on APNIC proposed By-law reforms Hi Chris: First you suggest members should keep ignorance, then you question members' integrity, you simply do not trust the membership, do you? LARUS works with clients from over 60 countries of different cultural backgrounds, we do not judge, to decide our customer's value, opinions, instead, we respect their rights to have their views. And we believe exactly because of this diversity, a single internet could exist to this day, otherwise, we will have no internet by now. By the way, which client of ours do you have problems with? Yes, we have IP addresses worth some money, but do every APNIC member, are you suggesting anyone holding an IP address is conflicted to contribute to the governance of APNIC? You want to forbid all APNIC members to participate? Seriously? On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 at 17:10, Christopher Hawker <ch...@thesysadmin.dev<mailto:ch...@thesysadmin.dev>> wrote: Lu, I did not suggest or even infer that anyone who voted for you was bribed. I strongly you re-read my statements again. APNIC does indeed have individuals from developing economies that are attempting to build a better internet. Some of these members may be susceptible to having their votes purchased in exchange for "free resources" or financial remuneration. This sort of behaviour is unacceptable. Corruption, bribery and the buying of votes can happen in any economy or service region, and because APNIC covers just over half of the world's population and has one of the largest (if not the largest) member bases, it is more prone to happen within the APNIC region. And to think that it doesn't happen is simply ignorant. It's all about education, training and development to mitigate these risks and prevent them from happening. You cannot advocate for "decentralize the registration database so members will truly own their registration", due to your sheer IP resource holdings that you hold with an estimated secondary market value exceeding $240m USD. This is in itself, what defines a conflict of interest. I don't think you quite grasp that concept. Further, decentralisation of RIRs will not work, as there needs to be some form of registry to manage allocations. This is what the RIRs are designed to do. Further, your advocacy for an "Internet [that] will finally be free" is hypocritical. LARUS supports and works with known state-based or state-controlled organisations that censor and restrict internet use. Before you start advocating for a "free internet" on the world stage, you may want to start advocating to your clients. Regards, Christopher H. ________________________________ From: Lu Heng <h...@anytimechinese.com<mailto:h...@anytimechinese.com>> Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2023 5:43 PM To: Christopher Hawker <ch...@thesysadmin.dev<mailto:ch...@thesysadmin.dev>> Cc: David Conrad <d...@virtualized.org<mailto:d...@virtualized.org>>; Dilip Kounmany <dlilipk2...@gmail.com<mailto:dlilipk2...@gmail.com>>; apnic-talk@lists.apnic.net<mailto:apnic-talk@lists.apnic.net> <apnic-talk@lists.apnic.net<mailto:apnic-talk@lists.apnic.net>> Subject: Re: [apnic-talk] Re: Feedback on APNIC proposed By-law reforms Hi Chris: Are you suggesting every voter that voted for me in the last election is because of monetary incentives? Your mind of corruption is beyond belief. While bribing voters might work in some poor nations where voters might be forced to exchange their vote for some essentials to live, an unfortunate reality but it does happen, but in terms of APNIC election, such accusation is simply absurd. The voters of the APNIC election are not poor individuals, they are corporations,and many of them are multi billion dollar corporations, some of the world's most wealthy companies. The 700 plus companies that voted for me because they believe what I was advocating for, because they believe their voice has been ignored for too long, because they believe it's time for them to take collective action to do something about the problematic governance of APNIC. In the past 25 years, you and your friends have survived on the ignorance of the membership, stop trying to block their information, stop trying to live on their ignorance. I thank the members who voted for me, and I will continue to advocate better governance for the RIRs, ultimately, decentralize the registration database so members will truly own their registration, they will no longer need to submit to people like you think RIR should be run like an authoritarian government. The Internet will finally be free. On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 at 15:11, Christopher Hawker <ch...@thesysadmin.dev<mailto:ch...@thesysadmin.dev>> wrote: APNIC was never run as a dictatorship. It is simply wrong to even insinuate that it was. As was explained during the community consultations, the EC only used their powers to change the bylaws without a member vote twice in 25 years - once to expand the EC from 5 to 7 members, and to require a super majority of 75% of all EC members to change the bylaws without a member vote. This clearly demonstrates that the EC acts in no other way than for the benefit of the members and should speak as to their values. Allegedly offering monetary and resource incentives, and then (allegedly) asking members to forward screenshots to NRS.help is not helping candidates make an informed decision. The EC members have made a name for themselves within the community through their work and commitment to a better internet. This is where people see value in nominating and voting for them to become EC members. If you really wanted to get out there and campaign for a position on the EC, you would be actively engaging with the community like the current EC members have, not be hung up on APNIC compiling a list of governance contacts for you to send campaigning materials to. While some wording in the current drafted by-law reforms could be construed as vague, the concept remains the same. It's designed to protect members' rights and allow them to have their voices heard as well as protect the interests of APNIC as a whole. Allowing individuals who feel the need to seek redress from APNIC through litigation, then join the EC, is not in the best interest. APNIC members do not need to give candidates any information whatsoever so they can share their election manifesto and thoughts. If people don't wish to vote (although they are strongly encouraged to do so), this is their right. Should they choose to give you their contact information directly in order for you to contact them regarding election campaigning, they are welcome to do so and no one is stopping them. And to refer to the EC and/or Director-General as "power hungry individuals" is downright despicable and disrespectful. The Director-General and EC members of past and present have done nothing to warrant or justify that terminology being used. I feel a public apology is in order. Regards, Christopher H. ________________________________ From: Lu Heng <h...@anytimechinese.com<mailto:h...@anytimechinese.com>> Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2023 2:59 PM To: David Conrad <d...@virtualized.org<mailto:d...@virtualized.org>> Cc: Dilip Kounmany <dlilipk2...@gmail.com<mailto:dlilipk2...@gmail.com>>; apnic-talk@lists.apnic.net<mailto:apnic-talk@lists.apnic.net> <apnic-talk@lists.apnic.net<mailto:apnic-talk@lists.apnic.net>> Subject: [apnic-talk] Re: Feedback on APNIC proposed By-law reforms Hi David: I understand you really like the dictatorship mode where first you then paul Wilson can change the bylaw without the membership just like recently demonstrated. But I am afraid this is not how democracy works. Just because under paul Wilson’s leader ship, APNIC’s lawyer put road block into something undemocratic, does not mean it’s right. The lack of governance matter contact for members and folks like you and chris try to forbid members hear the position of candidates and make informed voting decision, is something seriously wrong. With thousands member I have talked to, they all agree. It’s a problem need to be fixed here, not something you yet show off again just like that deed of trust. APNIC member all need to put up a governance contact and engage in its governance process as part of their rights and obligations. We need give power back to the member, not some power hungry individuals. On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 at 06:42 David Conrad <d...@virtualized.org<mailto:d...@virtualized.org>> wrote: On Aug 10, 2023, at 6:16 AM, Dilip Kounmany <dlilipk2...@gmail.com<mailto:dlilipk2...@gmail.com>> wrote: If candidates are reaching out to members during the election period, I don't see any issue with it. Presumably you are familiar with the term “spam” as it applies to electronic communication. I'm a bit unclear about what you're opposing here. Not to speak for Christopher, but you may want to review http://www.apnic.net/db/dbcopyright.html, in particular, the sentence: "Any use of this material to target advertising or similar activities is explicitly forbidden and will be prosecuted.” I’m a bit unclear why you're pretending using contacts from the APNIC database for spam should be acceptable to the community. Regards, -drc _______________________________________________ APNIC-talk - https://mailman.apnic.net/apnic-talk@lists.apnic.net/ To unsubscribe send an email to apnic-talk-le...@lists.apnic.net<mailto:apnic-talk-le...@lists.apnic.net> -- -- Kind regards. Lu -- -- Kind regards. Lu -- -- Kind regards. Lu
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