In New Jersey all local growers who apply pesticides are certified
and licensed. They could not buy or spray pesticides unless they received
the necessary training and certification. They also must follow stringent
label regulations from the federal government. Many also follow Integrated
Pest Management Guidelines from Rutgers Cooperative Extension. For these
reasons I think our local organic and conventional growers are honest and of
the highest integrity.
I also value local growers because they are a tax benefit to my
community in a state where property taxes are a big issue, they employ local
people, they support a diversified business and community infrastructure,
they conserve water and recharge groundwater, they maintain thousands of
acres of contiguous woodland, buffers, and prevent soil erosion, the
preserve open space, provide wildlife habitat, etc. etc.
It is much more enjoyable experience to take my family and drive
through farmland and visit a local farm than it is to get in my car and
drive to the local mega giant super center that selling cheap produce from a
distant location.
Jerome L. Frecon
Ag Agent and County Extension Dept. Head
Rutgers Cooperative Research and Extension
Of Gloucester County
1200 North Delsea Drive
Clayton, N.J. 08312
856 307-6450 Ext 1
Fax 856 307-6476
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://gloucester.rcre.rutgers.edu
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Steve Demuth
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 8:23 PM
To: Apple-Crop
Subject: RE: Apple-Crop: Time article
Kurt,
I actually agree with you that you, and other farmers, are probably
better served by the personal relationship than they would be by
certification alone (nothing, I might add, prevents one from
benefiting from both). My point was that the consumer's trust is
based mostly on the good feelings from the personal relationship,
even though there is no demonstrable correlation between this and the
things that people claim to value about food production methods.
And the physician example is in fact perfectly apropos. Firstly,
because physicians are certified, and required to periodically
re-certify in their chose area of practice. I suspect it matters a
great deal to most people that their doctor actually graduated from
medical school, finished a residency, and is regularly re-certified
in their speciality.
Secondly, it is true that people do choose physicians on
recommendations, and personal trust. And, it's a lousy way to choose
them. Having been involved research on clinical outcomes, I can say
quite certainly that the fact that a physician appears competent,
caring and trustworthy is very poorly correlated with whether or not
they produce above or below average results for their patients. Many
well-loved physicians are, statistically at least, a very bad bet for
your health.
This of course hardly bolsters my case for certification. Despite
our best efforts to certify physician competence, there is still a
huge variance in quality. However, there is an important difference
between organic certification and doctor certification: organic
certification certifies methods, not knowledge alone. There is a
movement afoot in the medical field to start doing this with
hospitals (if you can't verify that every post heart-attack patient
is getting the most proven effective drug regimen, you may lose your
blessing as a cardiac care center); organic already does this with
horticultural practice.
All of this is not to say that I think organic is an altogether great
thing. I don't actually like the direction that organic has taken in
the last 20 years; many of the regulations in the current
certification are to my mind just plain wrong headed. And I
certainly think that a local, ecologically-minded agriculture is
preferable in many ways to a distant, organically certified one.
But, how am I know to that my local grower is following best
horticultural, pesticide, and ecological practice. Trust? Not
alone. On this one I'm with Ronald Reagan, "trust but verify." That
is the value of certification.
Which bring me back to my starting point: this isn't an either
or. Can't there be a certification program for ecologically sound
agriculture that steers clear of the silliness in the organic
standards, and which tells me something useful about what is going on the
farm?
At 02:18 PM 3/11/2007, you wrote:
>Fellow Growers,
>
>I think that Steve's conclusion about the gullibility of consumers is a
>little misdirected. I have found that what consumers (people) really value
>and desire in America is personal relationships. Certification may well
>serve and be necessary for the 900 mile "local" model as well as the box
>stores but I believe that it has been born out of the realization of these
>retailers that they must somehow compete with the consumer desire to have a
>personal relationship with a person that they trust. I view the situation
>as being similar to having a physician. One generally chooses a personal
>physician not based on the fact that they have a PhD from a prestigious
>university and scored well on their finals, but rather on the
recommendation
>and endorsements from others who have established trusting personal
>relationships with that physician. Defining consumer trust may be mostly
>subjective, but it is very real. To a retailer, it manifests the bottom
>line. I feel much more confident building our retail farm business on our
>ability to create, build, and maintain personal relationships with the
>consumers that we serve (and we do this successfully with 10 of thousands
of
>customers) as opposed to trusting our future business growth to a
>bureaucratic regulatory certification program. Indeed, as growers we must
>always endeavor to do our job correctly in order to produce safe and
>nutritious food, but it is the personal relationship that people really
want
>and desire. And it is this reality, I believe, that will solidify and grow
>the retail farm market consumer spending share that is being aggressively
>sought after by the box stores and supermarkets.
>
>
>Kurt W. Alstede
>General Manager
>Alstede Farms, LLC
>P. O. Box 278
>Chester, New Jersey 07930
>United States of America
>
>Tel. 908-879-7189
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>On Behalf Of Steve Demuth
>Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 2:34 PM
>To: Apple-Crop
>Subject: RE: Apple-Crop: Time article
>
>People often do trust things they are familiar with. Unfortunately,
>they do this without much analysis of whether this is wise. That
>people trust locally grown and marketed produce says nothing
>whatsoever about the nutritional, economic or ecological bona fides
>of such product. That can only be done by well enforced
>certification programs. And that, whatever the faults of organic
>certification (and there are certainly many), is the real benefit of
>the organic label.
>
>So, while I am a great proponent for consuming locally grown produce,
>I think that Kurt's endorsement below points out mostly the
>gullibility of consumers, not anything virtuous about local
>production. Even the "petroleum miles" benefit claimed in the Time
>piece is not necessarily as obvious as it seems. If one hauls
>30,000lbs of apples cross country (say, 3,000 miles) in a
>semi-trailer, that can easily burn 600 gallons of fuel. But, suppose
>2000 consumers drive out to their local U-pick an average distance of
>10 miles round trip to get an average of 15 lbs of apples
>each. That's thte same 30,000lbs of product. Want to bet which uses
>more petroleum? In fact, the consumers would have to average 33+
>miles/gallon to beat the truckload - highly unlikely with today's
>cars. And if the local producer is delivering to local markets,
>rather than running a U-pick? The economics probably favor the local
>produce in this case, assuming an efficient and truly local route,
>but the margin will whither rapidly if they are delivering partial
>loads with 200+ mile round trips.
>
>And, as for the certainty a consumer may feel that a local grower
>from whom they buy personally will be attentive to safe use of
>pesticides and sound land use - a clean farm storefront, firm
>handshake and welcome smile no more assure this than good manners
>make used car salesmen honest. Most local growers do pay attention
>to these things, of course, but then so do most organic growers
>(particularly as they need to worry about inspections to assure that
>they do). Again, the advantage to the consumer of the local grower
>is more about perception than reality.
>
>My favorite analogy in this department is airplane travel. I don't
>really care whether I know personally the mechanic who services the
>next AirBus or Boeing that I get on. I do care that there are
>certification programs for the mechanic, the airframe, the pilot, and
>basically everything else to do with my flight. So too with
>food. Again, organic has gone directions that I sincerely disagree
>with, but I think the notion of certification is at it's core, a lot
>more valuable to society than "a farmer you know and trust."
>
>
>
>At 08:42 AM 3/11/2007, you wrote:
> >Hello Jon,
> >
> >You are right on as was the Time Article. In the final analysis, people
> >trust the face and the person that they can see and touch...their local
> >farmer. We have seen this to be the case in all of our direct marketing
>and
> >have cultivated it in all of our advertising and marketing efforts. I
was
> >thrilled to see Time give this subject favorable front page attention.
> >
> >
> >Kurt W. Alstede
> >General Manager
> >Alstede Farms, LLC
> >P. O. Box 278
> >Chester, New Jersey 07930
> >United States of America
> >
> >Tel. 908-879-7189
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: [email protected]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >On Behalf Of Jon Clements
> >Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 7:05 PM
> >To: Apple-Crop
> >Subject: Apple-Crop: Time article
> >
> >Although I am hesitant to fan any embers -- I know there are quite a
> >few out there -- into flames, it might be worth your while to pick up
> >the March 12th issue of Time magazine. There is a cover article on
> >organic vs. 'buy local.' A couple quotes:
> >
> >"In the end I bought both apples (organic vs. 'conventional New York
> >state local'). They were both good, although the California one had a
> >mealy bit, possibly from it's journey." (Is the author English -- a
> >"mealy bit?")
> >
> >"Eating locally also seems safer. Ted's (an upstate NY diversified
> >producer) neighbors and customers can see how he farms. That
> >transparency doesn't exist with, say, spinach bagged by a distant
> >agribusiness. I help keep Ted in business, and he helps keep me fed
> >-- and the elegance and sustainability of that exchange make more
> >sense to me than gambling on faceless producers who stamp ORGANIC on
> >a package thousands of miles from home."
> >
> >Now, I have been trying to fully explain the phenomenal direct-market
> >sales many Massachusetts apple growers -- and I understand it was
> >beyond MA too -- had last season. I know the weather was good, and
> >that makes a huge difference, but I am starting to think the buy
> >local campaigns are really kicking in? I found the article
> >interesting, and reasonably balanced, and something we should all be
> >paying attention too.
> >
> >If you did not catch his drift, the author clearly thought buying
> >'conventional local' was preferable to buying agribusiness 'organic'
> >-- particularly if the petroleum environmental cost was figured in.
> >
> >Any embers glowing brighter yet?
> >
> >:-)
> >
> >Jon
> >
> >Jon Clements
> >Extension Tree Fruit Specialist
> >UMass Cold Spring Orchard
> >393 Sabin Street
> >Belchertown, MA 01007
> >VOICE 413.478.7219
> >FAX 413.323.0382
> >IM mrhoneycrisp
> >Skype Name mrhoneycrisp
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >The 'Apple-Crop' LISTSERV is sponsored by the Virtual Orchard
> ><http://www.virtualorchard.net> and managed by Win Cowgill and Jon
> >Clements <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>.
> >
> >Apple-Crop is not moderated. Therefore, the statements do not represent
> >"official" opinions and the Virtual Orchard takes no responsibility for
> >the content.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >The 'Apple-Crop' LISTSERV is sponsored by the Virtual Orchard
> ><http://www.virtualorchard.net> and managed by Win Cowgill and Jon
> >Clements <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>.
> >
> >Apple-Crop is not moderated. Therefore, the statements do not represent
> >"official" opinions and the Virtual Orchard takes no responsibility for
> >the content.
>
>Steve Demuth
>Decorah, Iowa
>
>"Various forms of religious madness are quite common in the United
>States ..." -- Alexis de Tocqueville
>
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>The 'Apple-Crop' LISTSERV is sponsored by the Virtual Orchard
><http://www.virtualorchard.net> and managed by Win Cowgill and Jon
>Clements <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>.
>
>Apple-Crop is not moderated. Therefore, the statements do not represent
>"official" opinions and the Virtual Orchard takes no responsibility for
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>The 'Apple-Crop' LISTSERV is sponsored by the Virtual Orchard
><http://www.virtualorchard.net> and managed by Win Cowgill and Jon
>Clements <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>.
>
>Apple-Crop is not moderated. Therefore, the statements do not represent
>"official" opinions and the Virtual Orchard takes no responsibility for
>the content.
Steve Demuth
Decorah, Iowa
"Various forms of religious madness are quite common in the United
States ..." -- Alexis de Tocqueville
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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