On Jul 14, 2014, at 11:08 AM, Akhtar, Shahid (Shahid) 
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Hi Fred, All,
> 
> Let me an additional thought to this issue.
> 
> Given that (W)RED has been deployed extensively in operators' networks, and 
> most vendors are still shipping equipment with (W)RED, concern is that 
> obsoleting 2309 would discourage research on trying to find good 
> configurations to make (W)RED work.

Well, note that we’re not saying to pull RED out of the network; we’re saying 
to not make it the default. Note that even in the networks you mention, (W)RED 
is not the default configuration; you have to give it several parameters, and 
therefore have to actively turn it on.

> We had previously given a presentation at the ICCRG on why RED can still 
> provide value to operators 
> (http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/88/slides/slides-88-iccrg-0.pdf). We have a 
> paper at Globecom 2014 that explains this study much better, but I cannot 
> share a link to it until the proceedings are available.
> 
> One of the major reasons why operators chose not to deploy (W)RED was a 
> number of studies and research which gave operators conflicting messages on 
> the value of (W)RED and appropriate parameters to use. Some of these are 
> mentioned in the presentation above. 
> 
> In it we show that the previous studies which showed low value for RED used 
> web traffic which had very small file sizes (of the order of 5-10 packets), 
> which reduces the effectives of all AQMs which work by dropping or ECN 
> marking of flows to indicate congestion. Today's traffic is composed of 
> mostly multi-media traffic like HAS or video progressive download which has 
> much larger file sizes and can be controlled much better with AQMs and in our 
> research we show that RED can be quite effective with this traffic, with 
> little tuning needed for typical residential access flows.
> 
> Prefer John's proposal of updating 2309 rather than obsoleting, but if we can 
> have some text in Fred's draft acknowledging the large deployment of (W)RED 
> and the need to still find good configurations - that may work. I can 
> volunteer to provide that text.

The existing draft doesn’t mention any specific AQM algorithms. It seems to me 
that the more consistent approach would be to write a short draft documenting 
WRED, that the WG could pass along as informational or experimental on the 
basis of not meeting the requirements of being self-configuring/tuning, at the 
same time as it passes along others as PS or whatever.

> -Shahid.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: aqm [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fred Baker (fred)
> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2014 2:06 AM
> To: John Leslie
> Cc: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [aqm] Obsoleting RFC 2309
> 
> 
> On Jul 3, 2014, at 10:22 AM, John Leslie <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
>> It would be possible for someone to argue that restating a 
>> recommendation from another document weakens both statements; but I 
>> disagree: We should clearly state what we mean in this document, and I 
>> believe this wording does so.
> 
> The argument for putting it in there started from the fact that we are 
> obsoleting 2309, as stated in the charter. I would understand a document that 
> updates 2309 to be in a strange state if 2309 is itself made historic or 
> obsolete. So we carried the recommendation into this document so it wouldn't 
> get lost.
> 
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