arachne-digest        Thursday, April 3 2003        Volume 01 : Number 2085




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 01:02:07 -0500
From: "Samuel W. Heywood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Your recent Latin/Esperanto thesis . . .

On Tue, 1 Apr 2003 11:18:15, Carl P. Nelson wrote regarding the English
language:

<snip>

> It's a complex, irregular and confusing language,
> sometimes even to native speakers, but its power and range are virtually
> unchallenged.  Oriental languages are to some extent inferential, German
> is more precise, Spanish is more nearly regular, but English with all of
> its flaws is still the most comprehensive.  Whether this is the reason
> for its invasive growth, or whether it owes more than I suppose to the
> dominant position of the United States at this point in history, is not
> easy to determine.  But I do not see the trend slowing at any time soon.

<snip>

Many immigrants and visitors coming to the US from Spanish speaking
countries tell me that English is a very difficult language to learn
because, unlike their own native language, English words are not spelled
as they are pronounced and because English has many more irregularities
and exceptions to the rules than their own language.  I agree with them
on all the points they make on how difficult it is to learn Engish.  I
give them some advice on how to go about learning it and I tell them that
their own language is a very easy one to learn.  I know several people
who are very fluent in Spanish and English and several other languages and
they all tell me that English is among the most difficult languages to
learn and that Spanish is among the easiest.  I know a Korean immigrant
who knew no language other than his own when he came to Washington DC and
settled in a neighborhood where I used to live at the time.  The
neighborhood has many Hispanic residents.  My new Korean neighbor told me
that it was much easier for him to learn Spanish than to learn English.
He told me that he was going to set about learning both languages with
equal diligence because about half of the new friends he was making in the
US speak Spanish and the other half speak English, and of all these new
friends many speak both languages.  I noted that his progress in learning
Spanish seemed to be about four times as fast as his progress in learning
English.  He was very surprised to find that Spanish is so widely spoken
in so many areas of the US.  I believe that in a few decades Spanish will
rival English as being the most widely spoken language throughout the
world because the populations of the Spanish speaking countries are
growing much more rapidly than the populations of the English speaking
countries.

All the best,

Sam Heywood
- --
This mail was written by user of The Arachne Browser:
http://browser.arachne.cz/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 08:58:19 +00
From: "Bastiaan Edelman, PA3FFZ" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Help wanted on primairy partition

Hi List

I have two HD's in my computer and as an experiment I tried to make an
extra partition on HD1 (D:\).

With "Partition Resizer" this was done. A second partition was created
on HD1... but entry was denied to this partition.

Well they say you first have to format the new partition so this has
been done and now acces was gained to the new partition.
But the new partition is a logical partition so no operating system can
be installed there.

How to make a primairy partition of the newly created logical one?
I tried FDISK but that does not work... FDISK stated that there is
already a primairy partition on HD1 and refuses to make another one.
If I am well informed up to four primairy partitions are possible on a
HD.

Smart Boot Manager is installed and working fine.. the two HD's can be
swapped if necessary.

But how to make more than one primairy partition on a HD ???

Hope anyone of you has a smart idea about this.

Regards, Bastiaan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 03:50:22 -0500
From: "Samuel W. Heywood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: (OT) Why not Latin instead of Esperanto?

On Tue, 01 Apr 2003 15:19:41 -0500, Sam Ewalt wrote:

> On Mon, 31 Mar 2003 12:00:18 -0500, Samuel W. Heywood wrote:

>> I remember back in the late 1950's and early 1960's there was
>> an international movement to adopt Esperanto as an international
>> language.  The proponents of the movement said that Esperanto

> Esperanto was invented in 1871 by a Polish doctor for use as an
> International second language. According to the Encyclopedia
> Britannica it has around 100,000 speakers, is used by around
> twenty professional orgainizations and over 100 periodicals.
> Not bad. But not really sucessful.

I didn't know that Esperanto had been around for so long.  The
only thing I knew about it was that it was an invented and contrived
language and that there was a movement to attempt to make it popular
back in the late 1950's.

>> For use as an international language, why don't they consider adopting
>> Latin instead of Esperanto?

> Latin is of limited usefulness and hard to learn I'm told. English
> is the de facto international language now and the second language
> of choice around the world. If people want to communicate, do business
> internationally, study the latest advances in science, medicine,
> engineering, the arts, then they will learn English.

Yes, it is somewhat hard to learn in my opinion insofar as the grammar
is concerned, but the vocabulary is very easy for most speakers of
English and also for speakers of many other European languages because
so many of the words in those languages come down to us from Latin.  I
don't think its usefulness would be at all limited except when one would
want to discuss or write about the things of modern technology for which
no Latin terms exist.

> People are doing that with great enthusiasm all over the world.

> This certainly isn't because of any inherent virtue in the language
> or in it's native speakers but because it's so useful and of obvious
> economic benefit.

Learning to master the speaking and writing of English will be of
little economic benefit for those who lack skills and knowledge and
experience in the highly lucrative vocations.  An immigrant who is is
a manual laborer is not likely to be able to get a higher paying job
just because he learns to speak English.  Employers for those kinds of
jobs only care about how dependable the laborer is and they care about
how well and how fast he can do the job.  They don't care if he can't
speak English because that is not what he is paid to do.  Americans on
the work crew who don't work as well as the immigrants will get fired.
There is no shortage of hard working immigrant laborers to replace lazy
American workers.

English speaking shopkeepers and merchants in foreign countries are not
very likely to benefit from my patronage.  I have found that I can
almost always get a better deal from a merchant who doesn't speak
English.  Most of my fellow Americans are aware of the fact that there
are much better deals to be had in foreign countries by doing business
with merchants who don't speak English.  Unlike me, most of my fellow
Americans who travel in foreign countries have much more money than I
and they don't care about the price.  What they care most about is the
pleasure of being able to do business with a merchant who knows how to
communicate very well with his American customers, even if they know
that the English speaking merchants charge much higher prices for the
Americans.

Sam Heywood
- --
This mail was written by user of The Arachne Browser:
http://browser.arachne.cz/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 13:02:50 -0800
From: "Ben Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6900 DM

FROM: BEN BROWN 
44 OXFORD STREET ILLOVO, 
SANDTON,JOHANNESBURG, SOUTH AFRICA 
E-MAIL:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

I  am  Mr Ben Brown,  a farm  owner  in  Zimbabwe.   I 
have fifty farming  site  in  Zimbabwe, twenty 
tractors  with  one  hundred  and  twenty  workers.  
Then  the  Zimbabwe   ruling   government  of 
President Robert  Mugabe   ordered   for   the 
siezure  of  all  the  farming   lands  of  the  white 
own  farmers,  he  also  siezed  all  my  lands 
because  I  am  an  opposition  party  to  his 
government,  his  government  is  violating   the 
human  right  in  the  southern  region  of Africa. 
So  some  of  the  farm owners  where  killed  and 
their  properties  looted  by  the  war  veterans,  so 
I  being  a  black  Zimbabwean  I managed  to  move 
my  tractors  and  sold  them  to  the  south  African 
farmers.  I sold   all  my  properties  and  raised 
the  sum  of  US $22,300,000.00. 
                                                     
      Then  I  deposited  this   money  in  the 
Security  Company  at  Johannesburg  South  Africa  in 
the  safe  box.  I m  residing  temporary  now  in 
Johannesburg  as  a  political  assylum  seeker 
because  of  the  fear  of  Mugabe  who  are  seeking 
to  kill  me. 
Because  of  the  south  African  refugee  law, I 
cannot  deposit  this  money  in  the  bank  or 
invest  the  money  here  in  south  Africa,  that's 
why  I m  seeking  an  oversea   assistance  who  will 
help  me  transfer   this   money  to  his or  her 
account  to  his  country,  both  company  or 
individual.  I  get   your  address  through  a  
diplomatic  search  for  a  reliable  person.   I 
will  be  very  greatful  if  you  will  help  me  to 
transfer  this  money  on  your  account  or  find  a 
trust worthy  person  to   transfer  this  money.  I 
have  planned   a  smooth free  transaction  here  on 
my  side  because  I get  this  money   through  my  
effort  and  my  hard  work,  so  I have  noting   to 
fear.  The  break  down  of  this 
transaction  were  as  follows 
(1)  70% of  this  money  will  be for  me for  an 
investment  in  your  country. 
(2)  25% of  this  money  will  be  for  you  for 
your  assisting  me  to  transfer  it  on  your 
account  to  your   country. 
(3)  5%  of  this  money  will  be  for  any  expensis 
made  by  you  or  anyother  person  during  the 
transfering 
period. In  regard   of   this  request,  if  you  are 
willing   to  help  me,  Kindly  reply  me 
immediately and include your private tel/fax numbers. 
Thanks  and  God  bless 

Ben  Brown. 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 07:33:15 -0700
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: (OT) Why not Latin instead of Esperanto?

On Wed, 02 Apr 2003 "Samuel W. Heywood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> Learning to master the speaking and writing of English will be of
> little economic benefit for those who lack skills and knowledge and
> experience in the highly lucrative vocations.  

The up-and-coming highly (actually, moderately) lucrative vocations are,
more and more, including those with manual tasks. Further, all documents
in America (work or otherwise) are always in English. Anyone (native born
or immigrant) who doesn't have fluency in English is at a disadvantage in
an environment where English is the norm.

> An immigrant who is 
> is a manual laborer is not likely to be able to get a higher paying 
> job just because he learns to speak English.  Employers for those kinds

> of jobs only care about how dependable the laborer is and they care 
> about how well and how fast he can do the job.  They don't care if he 
> can't speak English because that is not what he is paid to do.  

Incorrect on all counts. Immigrants learn English specifically because:
- - they can get more money for the same (types of) job
- - there are more jobs available to English speakers
- - employers desire (and some require) direct communication with employees

> English speaking shopkeepers and merchants in foreign countries are 
> not very likely to benefit from my patronage. 

Perhaps you are the exception.

> I have found that I can almost always get a better
> deal from a merchant who doesn't speak English. 

My experience is that I get the best deals when I'm able to make small
talk and tell jokes in the midst of the battering.

> Most of my fellow Americans are aware of the fact that 
> there are much better deals to be had in foreign countries
> by doing business with merchants who don't speak English. 

Actually, the merchants who speak English are able to wheel-and-deal in
(at least) two languages. Therefore, they typically have more expanded
supply lines and better bargaining ability than their (non English
speaking) peers. The result is an economic advantage and, thus, lower
wholesale prices. They are, therefore, able to afford deeper discounts.

> Unlike me, most of my fellow Americans who travel in
> foreign countries have much more money than I and
> they don't care about the price.  What they care most
> about is the pleasure of being able to do business with
> a merchant who knows how to communicate very well
> with his American customers, even if they know that
> the English speaking merchants charge much higher
> prices for the Americans.

Our shopping styles are vastly different. I usually follow the
English-only shoppers around until they buy something I want. Because
they only speak English, I know exactly what deal they negotiated.
Afterward, I greet the merchant in a few words from his language, make
some small talk, and strike a better bargain.

If, as you claim, those merchants charge excessive prices to the American
shoppers, then they have a greater profit margin and are better able to
give a better discount.

What IS significant is knowing what prices the LOCAL (knowledgeable)
people pay. That has nothing to do with a merchant's ability to
communicate in English, but depends solely upon knowing the local
economic environment.

And (to make this dialog 'computer related'), if you find a way to help
the 'little guys' in that local environment to be more computer
competent, then they will reward that effort by helping you negotiate the
local marketplace. So, advocating and helping others learn English will
yield a direct, and positive, economic benefit to you. And you might
learn a few local greetings in the process.

Bob Dohse


- -

________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 11:54:11 -0400
From: "L.D. Best" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Help wanted on primairy partition

Bastiaan,

You need a separate type of program to have two "primary" partitions on
a single HDD.  Linux has this ability IIRC.  _Partition_Magic_ comes
with a separate program that does what's needed.  _System_Commander_
also does this (I had a bad experience with it, but others like it).

What those programs do is rewrite the MBR and provide an interface so
you can make your selection of which "primary" partition you want.

Before trying any of those programs, make a 'rescue' diskette so you can
restore your MBR to original if something goes wrong [that's what saved
me when I found out the hard way that System Commander had a bad
diskette].  

I'm pretty sure that you can find some programs to back-up your Master
Boot Record (MBR) on simtel or other web places.  There may also be some
programs out there in free/shareware land that allow you to rewrite MBR
for more than one primary partition.

l.d.
====

On Wed, 02 Apr 2003 08:58:19 +00, Bastiaan Edelman, PA3FFZ wrote:

> Hi List

> I have two HD's in my computer and as an experiment I tried to make an
> extra partition on HD1 (D:\).

> With "Partition Resizer" this was done. A second partition was created
> on HD1... but entry was denied to this partition.

> Well they say you first have to format the new partition so this has
> been done and now acces was gained to the new partition.
> But the new partition is a logical partition so no operating system can
> be installed there.

> How to make a primairy partition of the newly created logical one?
> I tried FDISK but that does not work... FDISK stated that there is
> already a primairy partition on HD1 and refuses to make another one.
> If I am well informed up to four primairy partitions are possible on a
> HD.

> Smart Boot Manager is installed and working fine.. the two HD's can be
> swapped if necessary.

> But how to make more than one primairy partition on a HD ???

> Hope anyone of you has a smart idea about this.

> Regards, Bastiaan

- -- Arachne V1.71;UE01, NON-COMMERCIAL copy, http://arachne.cz/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 12:52:56 -0500
From: Roger Turk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Help wanted on primairy partition

Bastiaan,

As L.D. said, some people like Boot Magic (from PowerQuest) and others like 
System Commander (from V-Systems), but as long as any of them work properly, 
they should permit multiple operating systems on a HD.  I believe that at one 
time I saw multi-os programs available on Simtel.

Does your "Partition Resizer" or Smart Boot Manager permit you to hide or 
change the active partition?  I think that this is one of the primary 
conditions for having multiple operating systems on your HD.  You can have 
only one active primary partition at a time.

I used System Commander on my laptop HD and had both Windoze and DOS 
partitions.  I had a DR-DOS primary partition with drive C: and an extended 
DOS partition with logical drives D: thru K:.  Windoze had only a primary 
partition with drive C:.  What I didn't like was that Windoze could read from 
and write to the logical DR-DOS drives and put hidden/read only/system files 
on those drives.

With the price of HD's coming down (I have purchased a 100GB HD for less than 
US$1 a GB), I have installed HD's on trays and put cradles in my desktop 
machines.  Windoze is on its own HD and can muck it up all it wants without 
affecting my other OSes.

HTH

Roger Turk
Tucson, Arizona

L.D. and Bastiaan wrote:

. > Bastiaan,

. > You need a separate type of program to have two "primary" partitions on
. > a single HDD.  Linux has this ability IIRC.  _Partition_Magic_ comes
. > with a separate program that does what's needed.  _System_Commander_
. > also does this (I had a bad experience with it, but others like it).

. > What those programs do is rewrite the MBR and provide an interface so
. > you can make your selection of which "primary" partition you want.

. > Before trying any of those programs, make a 'rescue' diskette so you can
. > restore your MBR to original if something goes wrong [that's what saved
. > me when I found out the hard way that System Commander had a bad
. > diskette].  

. > I'm pretty sure that you can find some programs to back-up your Master
. > Boot Record (MBR) on simtel or other web places.  There may also be some
. > programs out there in free/shareware land that allow you to rewrite MBR
. > for more than one primary partition.

. > l.d.
. > ====

. > On Wed, 02 Apr 2003 08:58:19 +00, Bastiaan Edelman, PA3FFZ wrote:

> Hi List

> I have two HD's in my computer and as an experiment I tried to make an
> extra partition on HD1 (D:\).

> With "Partition Resizer" this was done. A second partition was created
> on HD1... but entry was denied to this partition.

> Well they say you first have to format the new partition so this has
> been done and now acces was gained to the new partition.
> But the new partition is a logical partition so no operating system can
> be installed there.

> How to make a primairy partition of the newly created logical one?
> I tried FDISK but that does not work... FDISK stated that there is
> already a primairy partition on HD1 and refuses to make another one.
> If I am well informed up to four primairy partitions are possible on a
> HD.

> Smart Boot Manager is installed and working fine.. the two HD's can be
> swapped if necessary.

> But how to make more than one primairy partition on a HD ???

> Hope anyone of you has a smart idea about this.

> Regards, Bastiaan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 15:14:24 -0300
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Fw: (OT) HOPE ?

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 11:33 AM
Subject: Re: (OT) Why not Latin instead of Esperanto?


>
> On Wed, 02 Apr 2003 "Samuel W. Heywood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >
> >They don't care if he
> > can't speak English because that is not what he is paid to do.



> Incorrect on all counts.

That's it !.

Immigrants learn English specifically because:

> - they can get more money for the same (types of) job
> - there are more jobs available to English speakers

Bet on it ! otherwise how to comment results of sports ?

> - employers desire (and some require) direct communication with employees

Sure ! no middleman for daily tasks !

I have seen some mexicans families enjoying like mad when they understand
signs, cell phone contracts , flyers,  etc. also when they put hard efforts
to understand their neighbours.


.....to understand an insurance policy.....it will take longer :-)


> > I have found that I can almost always get a better
> > deal from a merchant who doesn't speak English.
>
> My experience is that I get the best deals when I'm able to make small
> talk and tell jokes in the midst of the battering.

Yes, I don't care what country he/she is coming from if communication can be
conducted in English !

BTW Have a look on internet Russian ladies agencies ....!!!   they highlight
English skills !


> > Most of my fellow Americans are aware of the fact that
> > there are much better deals to be had in foreign countries
> > by doing business with merchants who don't speak English.



> Actually, the merchants who speak English are able to wheel-and-deal in
> (at least) two languages. Therefore, they typically have more expanded
> supply lines and better bargaining ability than their (non English
> speaking) peers.


Absolutely.....I used to work in the hosting field with only-English
operators.....(a Texas ISP)
but with troubles arise.....I choose to speak in my mother tongue with
hispanic customer support to avoid strong misunderstandings.........

so I think that having bilingual personnel......
is a key for success with international customers.

Nevertheless....the best way to deal business overseas....is having local
bilingual help........to get best prices at town (as visitor)

The same thing all over the world.....!!!!


The result is an economic advantage and, thus, lower
> wholesale prices. They are, therefore, able to afford deeper discounts.


> > Unlike me, most of my fellow Americans who travel in
> > foreign countries have much more money than I and
> > they don't care about the price.  What they care most
> > about is the pleasure of being able to do business with
> > a merchant who knows how to communicate very well
> > with his American customers, even if they know that
> > the English speaking merchants charge much higher
> > prices for the Americans.
********

That's could be certain for high profile tourists........but..
Ordinary people usually enjoy to pay the same price as local consumers.

As it happens on a chain store......
Normal for average human behaviour isn't it ?

BTW a BigMac here for less than $2 sounds a real bargain :-) for an
US/Europe visitor !

What bobody knows exactly how much have to pay for a tango lesson !!!!

....or a private sightseeing with a multicultural translator...........BTW
if you know anybody coming here, very  peaceful South America with a small
touch of European background.....let us know about me :)

Exchange rate by
****************
Dec. 2001    1 US dollar = 1 peso (bad for tourism)
March 2002 1 U$ dollar = 3.80 peso
March 2003 1 U$ dollar = 3.00 peso


ATM networks (Cirrus/VisaCash, etc.) work dispensing local currency at
street price 1$=3 peso

Samples
*******

Automobile gas (butane) U$ 0.70 per gallon (less toxic than unleaded gas)

An excellent bottle of export-grade Cabernet/Sauvignon/Malbec wine under $ 3
dollars !
(I saw at U$ 12 in an continental US chain)

A complete meal (includes a T-bone barbecued steak at a restaurant  under $
5 each.....woow !)

So.......I would like to think as tourist......(grin) .....comparing with US
domestic prices so doing great gains !!! :)

..............is this too much off topic ?.....sorry, I don't like at this
time to speak about world facts !

To much grief and sorrow..........seeing how tweak is the human condition.

Evil greed and misery means not having confidence in the
future......conversely HOPE !!!!


Italian author Dante's Alighieri.....(classic litherature talking about the
Inferno ** Divine Comedy***)...tells about that..... LACK of HOPE means
DEATH !

As it is told in the Old Testament............."People wit lack of
vision..... will peril "


Let's enjoy every day with more HOPE every day !!!



Elliot




> Our shopping styles are vastly different. I usually follow the
> English-only shoppers around until they buy something I want. Because
> they only speak English, I know exactly what deal they negotiated.
> Afterward, I greet the merchant in a few words from his language, make
> some small talk, and strike a better bargain.
>
> If, as you claim, those merchants charge excessive prices to the American
> shoppers, then they have a greater profit margin and are better able to
> give a better discount.
>
> What IS significant is knowing what prices the LOCAL (knowledgeable)
> people pay. That has nothing to do with a merchant's ability to
> communicate in English, but depends solely upon knowing the local
> economic environment.
>
> And (to make this dialog 'computer related'), if you find a way to help
> the 'little guys' in that local environment to be more computer
> competent, then they will reward that effort by helping you negotiate the
> local marketplace. So, advocating and helping others learn English will
> yield a direct, and positive, economic benefit to you. And you might
> learn a few local greetings in the process.
>
> Bob Dohse
>
>
> -
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
> Only $9.95 per month!
> Visit www.juno.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 13:59:59 -0500
From: "Samuel W. Heywood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: (OT) Why not Latin instead of Esperanto?

On Wed, 2 Apr 2003 07:33:15 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> On Wed, 02 Apr 2003 "Samuel W. Heywood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>> Learning to master the speaking and writing of English will be of
>> little economic benefit for those who lack skills and knowledge and
>> experience in the highly lucrative vocations.

> The up-and-coming highly (actually, moderately) lucrative vocations are,
> more and more, including those with manual tasks. Further, all documents
> in America (work or otherwise) are always in English. Anyone (native born
> or immigrant) who doesn't have fluency in English is at a disadvantage in
> an environment where English is the norm.

Any ignorance on any subject will put someone at some kind of disadvantage,
but some kinds of ignorance do not result in putting one at a disadvantage
of an economic nature.  Unless one's job involves having to deal with
documents and to fill out forms and to communicate with the general public
ignorance of English will not put one at an economic disadvantage.  Many
employers have foremen and supervisors who can speak the immigrant worker's
language.  They instruct the immigrant laborers on what they are supposed
to do and they help them to fill out their forms.  Learning English would
only help the employee to be considered for a promotion to a low level
supervisor's position.  He would not rise to a highly paid job unless he
were to learn new skills other than the ability to speak, understand, read,
and to write English.

>> An immigrant who is
>> is a manual laborer is not likely to be able to get a higher paying
>> job just because he learns to speak English.  Employers for those kinds
>> of jobs only care about how dependable the laborer is and they care
>> about how well and how fast he can do the job.  They don't care if he
>> can't speak English because that is not what he is paid to do.

> Incorrect on all counts. Immigrants learn English specifically because:
> - they can get more money for the same (types of) job

They do not get more money for the same kinds of jobs just by being able
to speak English.  They get more money for the same kinds of jobs only
by learning to become more productive.

> - there are more jobs available to English speakers

True, but immigrant workers who don't speak English don't have any
problems in finding jobs as long as they have the required immigration
papers.  Only lazy Americans say that they have problems in finding
a job.

> - employers desire (and some require) direct communication with employees

True.  However, a hard working immigrant who can't speak English can
easily get hired by some employers who do not have such requirements.
A highly skilled and diligent worker can get a high paying job even if
he can't speak at all.  I know some deaf mutes who have very high paying
jobs.  I used to work closely with some.  We communicated with each other
by simple gestures and sometimes by writing very short and abbreviated
notes to each other.  Very little communication was required for
successfully coordinating our work activities.  The immediate supervisors
of the deaf mute employees were required to learn American Sign Language.
If the supervisor can't speak the language of his employees then the
employer can simply require the supervisors to learn to speak their
language.  If the supervisors have a problem with that, then the
supervisors can be replaced.

>> English speaking shopkeepers and merchants in foreign countries are
>> not very likely to benefit from my patronage.

> Perhaps you are the exception.

>> I have found that I can almost always get a better
>> deal from a merchant who doesn't speak English.

> My experience is that I get the best deals when I'm able to make small
> talk and tell jokes in the midst of the battering.

Did you mean the bantering or perhaps the bargaining?

>> Most of my fellow Americans are aware of the fact that
>> there are much better deals to be had in foreign countries
>> by doing business with merchants who don't speak English.

> Actually, the merchants who speak English are able to wheel-and-deal in
> (at least) two languages. Therefore, they typically have more expanded
> supply lines and better bargaining ability than their (non English
> speaking) peers. The result is an economic advantage and, thus, lower
> wholesale prices. They are, therefore, able to afford deeper discounts.

Yes, I know they are able to afford to give deeper discounts, but if the
word gets out that they give deep discounts then all of their customers
will try to get the deeply discounted prices.

>> Unlike me, most of my fellow Americans who travel in
>> foreign countries have much more money than I and
>> they don't care about the price.  What they care most
>> about is the pleasure of being able to do business with
>> a merchant who knows how to communicate very well
>> with his American customers, even if they know that
>> the English speaking merchants charge much higher
>> prices for the Americans.

> Our shopping styles are vastly different. I usually follow the
> English-only shoppers around until they buy something I want. Because
> they only speak English, I know exactly what deal they negotiated.
> Afterward, I greet the merchant in a few words from his language, make
> some small talk, and strike a better bargain.

> If, as you claim, those merchants charge excessive prices to the American
> shoppers, then they have a greater profit margin and are better able to
> give a better discount.

> What IS significant is knowing what prices the LOCAL (knowledgeable)
> people pay. That has nothing to do with a merchant's ability to
> communicate in English, but depends solely upon knowing the local
> economic environment.

Yes, that is very significant.  For this reason I always try to make
friends with the local folks and ask for their advice.  Foreigners
travelling in the US also frequently ask me for my advice on local
prices and best places to shop and the best places to visit in the local
environment.  I always give them the very best advice I can.

> And (to make this dialog 'computer related'), if you find a way to help
> the 'little guys' in that local environment to be more computer
> competent, then they will reward that effort by helping you negotiate the
> local marketplace. So, advocating and helping others learn English will
> yield a direct, and positive, economic benefit to you. And you might
> learn a few local greetings in the process.

Helping others in any way will always result in very good karma for you.
Sometimes the good karma will come to you in the form of economic
benefit but more frequently it will come to you in other ways.

Sam Heywood
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Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 22:40:51 -0700
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Battering

On Wed, 02 Apr 2003 "Samuel W. Heywood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > My experience is that I get the best deals when I'm able to make 
> > small talk and tell jokes in the midst of the battering.
> 
> Did you mean the bantering or perhaps the bargaining?


Well, I meant to write "bartering". 

But, come to think of it, sometimes I get battered. <g>

Bob


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Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 09:43:31 -0500
From: "Sam Ewalt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: (OT) Why not Latin instead of Esperanto?

On Wed, 02 Apr 2003 09:02:48 +1000, Ron Clarke wrote:

> BTW: Anybody thought of declining VIRUS ?

> -  virus
> vire
> virum
> virii
> viro                    There is an extensive discussion regarding
                  the Latin declinsion of VIRUS at the website I
                  mentioned previously.

                  http://www.perl.com/language/misc/virus.html

It's not as straightforward as you might imagine. From what I
was able to discern VIRUS in Latin is a special class the gets
handled  differently. But it's all Greek to me. <grin>


Evidently, in Latin VIRUS has no plural.

And the reason Latin is now of limited utiity is that hardly anyone
speaks it anymore. I'm willing to bet that even when a Roman Catholic
Bishop from Africa meets his counterpart from South America that they
are more likely to converse in English than in Latin.

Thirty years ago when I was in high school Latin was still offered
in some larger schools as an elective. Today high school Latin in 
the United States is extremely rare.

Tempis fugit.



Sam Ewalt
Croswell, Michigan, USA
- -- Arachne V1.70;rev.3, NON-COMMERCIAL copy, http://arachne.cz/

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