On Wed, 2 Apr 2003 07:33:15 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > On Wed, 02 Apr 2003 "Samuel W. Heywood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> Learning to master the speaking and writing of English will be of >> little economic benefit for those who lack skills and knowledge and >> experience in the highly lucrative vocations. > The up-and-coming highly (actually, moderately) lucrative vocations are, > more and more, including those with manual tasks. Further, all documents > in America (work or otherwise) are always in English. Anyone (native born > or immigrant) who doesn't have fluency in English is at a disadvantage in > an environment where English is the norm. Any ignorance on any subject will put someone at some kind of disadvantage, but some kinds of ignorance do not result in putting one at a disadvantage of an economic nature. Unless one's job involves having to deal with documents and to fill out forms and to communicate with the general public ignorance of English will not put one at an economic disadvantage. Many employers have foremen and supervisors who can speak the immigrant worker's language. They instruct the immigrant laborers on what they are supposed to do and they help them to fill out their forms. Learning English would only help the employee to be considered for a promotion to a low level supervisor's position. He would not rise to a highly paid job unless he were to learn new skills other than the ability to speak, understand, read, and to write English. >> An immigrant who is >> is a manual laborer is not likely to be able to get a higher paying >> job just because he learns to speak English. Employers for those kinds >> of jobs only care about how dependable the laborer is and they care >> about how well and how fast he can do the job. They don't care if he >> can't speak English because that is not what he is paid to do. > Incorrect on all counts. Immigrants learn English specifically because: > - they can get more money for the same (types of) job They do not get more money for the same kinds of jobs just by being able to speak English. They get more money for the same kinds of jobs only by learning to become more productive. > - there are more jobs available to English speakers True, but immigrant workers who don't speak English don't have any problems in finding jobs as long as they have the required immigration papers. Only lazy Americans say that they have problems in finding a job. > - employers desire (and some require) direct communication with employees True. However, a hard working immigrant who can't speak English can easily get hired by some employers who do not have such requirements. A highly skilled and diligent worker can get a high paying job even if he can't speak at all. I know some deaf mutes who have very high paying jobs. I used to work closely with some. We communicated with each other by simple gestures and sometimes by writing very short and abbreviated notes to each other. Very little communication was required for successfully coordinating our work activities. The immediate supervisors of the deaf mute employees were required to learn American Sign Language. If the supervisor can't speak the language of his employees then the employer can simply require the supervisors to learn to speak their language. If the supervisors have a problem with that, then the supervisors can be replaced. >> English speaking shopkeepers and merchants in foreign countries are >> not very likely to benefit from my patronage. > Perhaps you are the exception. >> I have found that I can almost always get a better >> deal from a merchant who doesn't speak English. > My experience is that I get the best deals when I'm able to make small > talk and tell jokes in the midst of the battering. Did you mean the bantering or perhaps the bargaining? >> Most of my fellow Americans are aware of the fact that >> there are much better deals to be had in foreign countries >> by doing business with merchants who don't speak English. > Actually, the merchants who speak English are able to wheel-and-deal in > (at least) two languages. Therefore, they typically have more expanded > supply lines and better bargaining ability than their (non English > speaking) peers. The result is an economic advantage and, thus, lower > wholesale prices. They are, therefore, able to afford deeper discounts. Yes, I know they are able to afford to give deeper discounts, but if the word gets out that they give deep discounts then all of their customers will try to get the deeply discounted prices. >> Unlike me, most of my fellow Americans who travel in >> foreign countries have much more money than I and >> they don't care about the price. What they care most >> about is the pleasure of being able to do business with >> a merchant who knows how to communicate very well >> with his American customers, even if they know that >> the English speaking merchants charge much higher >> prices for the Americans. > Our shopping styles are vastly different. I usually follow the > English-only shoppers around until they buy something I want. Because > they only speak English, I know exactly what deal they negotiated. > Afterward, I greet the merchant in a few words from his language, make > some small talk, and strike a better bargain. > If, as you claim, those merchants charge excessive prices to the American > shoppers, then they have a greater profit margin and are better able to > give a better discount. > What IS significant is knowing what prices the LOCAL (knowledgeable) > people pay. That has nothing to do with a merchant's ability to > communicate in English, but depends solely upon knowing the local > economic environment. Yes, that is very significant. For this reason I always try to make friends with the local folks and ask for their advice. Foreigners travelling in the US also frequently ask me for my advice on local prices and best places to shop and the best places to visit in the local environment. I always give them the very best advice I can. > And (to make this dialog 'computer related'), if you find a way to help > the 'little guys' in that local environment to be more computer > competent, then they will reward that effort by helping you negotiate the > local marketplace. So, advocating and helping others learn English will > yield a direct, and positive, economic benefit to you. And you might > learn a few local greetings in the process. Helping others in any way will always result in very good karma for you. Sometimes the good karma will come to you in the form of economic benefit but more frequently it will come to you in other ways. Sam Heywood -- This mail was written by user of The Arachne Browser: http://browser.arachne.cz/
