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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Consultation on Implementing Single Transferrable Voting
for ARIN Elections (Owen DeLong)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 16:46:54 -0800
From: Owen DeLong <[email protected]>
To: "Azinger, Marla" <[email protected]>
Cc: Adam Thompson <[email protected]>, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]>, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [ARIN-consult] Consultation on Implementing Single
Transferrable Voting for ARIN Elections
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> On Jan 10, 2022, at 14:14 , Azinger, Marla <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> If you are in fact a contractor doing actual work and not just a troll that
> has befriended someone at an ISP promising faith to vote in their best
> interest, then you are working for that company. Contracted personnel are
> employees.
The IRS and many other government agencies draw stark distinctions between
Contractors and Employees.
For example:
Employees get a W-2 in January.
Contractors (may) get a 1099 (now of a couple of different possible
types) in February.
There are other distinctions. There are good reasons for these distinctions.
I?m all for eliminating abuse, but ?is not employed by? is not a valid
definition.
I would accept ?Has no business affiliation with? or ?Is not an authorized
agent of? or other similar language (Michael can probably
provide a best recommendation here, as ARIN?s general counsel).
Owen
>
> That said. One person voting on behalf of several different companies is not
> diversity in any leap of the imagination.
>
> Again. No matter what is done here, there will always be gaming. Just looking
> at changing how this works is gaming.
>
> I?m kinda sorry I wasted my time reading this thread and responding at all.
>
> Marla Azinger | SPVR, IP Management
> O 585-413-9128 | [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> <image010.png><image011.png> <image012.png> <image013.png> www.frontier.com
> <http://www.frontier.com/>
>
>
> From: Adam Thompson <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
> Sent: Monday, January 10, 2022 2:01 PM
> To: Azinger, Marla <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>;
> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>; [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> Subject: RE: [ARIN-consult] Consultation on Implementing Single Transferrable
> Voting for ARIN Elections
>
> Nope. I have been hired three times in the past to cast an ARIN vote for
> someone else because they didn?t want to take the time to figure it out.
> I would say that organization experience defines the difference in
> perspective here: contracting out core functions is 100% normal up here,
> especially for smaller orgs. So ?if they don?t work for the company? is not
> a valid test for ? by my best estimation ? at least tens of thousands of
> companies that will shortly be eligible to vote. If you?ve never worked in
> that sort of environment, it may seem strange. I can think of several local
> companies that are ARIN orgs, off the top of my head, that have ZERO
> employees ? only contractors.
> -Adam
>
> Adam Thompson
> Consultant, Infrastructure Services
> <image014.png>
> 100 - 135 Innovation Drive
> Winnipeg, MB, R3T 6A8
> (204) 977-6824 or 1-800-430-6404 (MB only)
> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> www.merlin.mb.ca
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.merlin.mb.ca/__;!!M2UytebrhrTR!aC-U4Mi8fjtx00j6-gibiFNIcded-dQ49QX64nAG-g3z6sSEUt91v_fpZWDYVyyF$>
>
> From: Azinger, Marla <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
> Sent: Monday, January 10, 2022 3:58 PM
> To: Adam Thompson <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>;
> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>; [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> Subject: RE: [ARIN-consult] Consultation on Implementing Single Transferrable
> Voting for ARIN Elections
>
> To identify the abusers you would simply have to look at the list of voters
> and what ORG ID?s they have control over. If they don?t work for the company
> they shouldn?t be controlling its votes.
>
> I don?t agree that proxy should exist. And yes it is another form of voter
> abuse. Clearly, we will not agree on this.
>
> Marla Azinger | SPVR, IP Management
> O 585-413-9128 | [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> <image015.png><image016.png><image017.png> <image018.png> www.frontier.com
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.frontier.com__;!!M2UytebrhrTR!aC-U4Mi8fjtx00j6-gibiFNIcded-dQ49QX64nAG-g3z6sSEUt91v_fpZTaEb77n$>
>
>
> From: Adam Thompson <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
> Sent: Monday, January 10, 2022 1:54 PM
> To: Azinger, Marla <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>;
> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>; [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> Subject: RE: [ARIN-consult] Consultation on Implementing Single Transferrable
> Voting for ARIN Elections
>
> There are two big reasons: apathy and limited staff time. Most small ISPs
> simply don?t care about ARIN governance, 99.999% of the time, and don?t have
> time to learn enough to discover how/what/when/where they should care. ARIN
> is just a force of nature they have to content with when they need more
> resources?
>
> In general, I don?t agree with you, at least not entirely: if a contractor is
> voting in the best interests of a client, with the client?s full knowledge,
> and is doing so for more than one client simultaneously, that?s still 100%
> legit. Expecting company owners to maintain a PoC and vote is not realistic,
> at least based on all the company owners I know (with perhaps a lone
> exception). And there is validation, of sorts: if someone votes against the
> interests of their client, a) they?re cutting their own throat, albeit
> indirectly, and b) if it?s discovered, they likely get fired or equivalent.
>
> So If someone has voting rights for an org that they have no
> legal/contractual relationship with, then that?s an odd situation. Either
> it?s ?legacy?, i.e. left over from when it was legit, which is very hard to
> fix in general, or it?s a situation that probably should never have happened
> in the first place. I?d be happy to see ways to solve those problems?
> assuming there?s any evidence whatsoever that it?s actually a problem in the
> first place.
>
> -Adam
>
> Adam Thompson
> Consultant, Infrastructure Services
> <image014.png>
> 100 - 135 Innovation Drive
> Winnipeg, MB, R3T 6A8
> (204) 977-6824 or 1-800-430-6404 (MB only)
> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> www.merlin.mb.ca
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.merlin.mb.ca/__;!!M2UytebrhrTR!eqdKUWFgrdNnlUOh2EI-oFETtgpJtz7T7PmhXF9h3YIx1XAMo5-wLaC2LnrmVsNx$>
>
> From: Azinger, Marla <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
> Sent: Monday, January 10, 2022 3:01 PM
> To: Adam Thompson <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>;
> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>; [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> Subject: RE: [ARIN-consult] Consultation on Implementing Single Transferrable
> Voting for ARIN Elections
>
> If ARIN is looking for people that actually want to be involved to cast the
> voting and really care, the votes would best be cast by anything other than a
> proxy.
>
> I find proxy voters don?t always care what the desire of the company is and
> there is no validation being done they casted votes how the owner of the vote
> would actually want.
>
> I?m not a fan of proxy this day in age. Proxy to me is a throw back to
> before online voting occurred. There?s no reason a company cant vote on their
> own.
>
>
> Marla Azinger | SPVR, IP Management
> O 585-413-9128 | [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> <image019.png><image020.png><image021.png> <image022.png> www.frontier.com
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.frontier.com__;!!M2UytebrhrTR!eqdKUWFgrdNnlUOh2EI-oFETtgpJtz7T7PmhXF9h3YIx1XAMo5-wLaC2LofU2RgS$>
>
>
> From: Adam Thompson <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
> Sent: Monday, January 10, 2022 12:02 PM
> To: Azinger, Marla <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>;
> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>; [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> Subject: RE: [ARIN-consult] Consultation on Implementing Single Transferrable
> Voting for ARIN Elections
>
> Not sure that?s low-hanging fruit, tbh. Besides MERLIN, I still have voting
> rights for ? 3? local ISPs, who are all aware of that and OK with that. In
> any other arena, that?s just holding a proxy vote, which is not a big deal.
> What sort of problems have you seen in this area (that I obviously haven?t)?
> -Adam
>
> Adam Thompson
> Consultant, Infrastructure Services
> <image014.png>
> 100 - 135 Innovation Drive
> Winnipeg, MB, R3T 6A8
> (204) 977-6824 or 1-800-430-6404 (MB only)
> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> www.merlin.mb.ca
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.merlin.mb.ca/__;!!M2UytebrhrTR!c2ZEjGLTpLzzB0NcqRhddq0ebLp4mUbzhD5ajlW6BmGWGO6t7IJUsP104NmK_RnB$>
>
> From: ARIN-consult <[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>> On Behalf Of Azinger, Marla
> Sent: Monday, January 10, 2022 1:53 PM
> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>; [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [ARIN-consult] Consultation on Implementing Single Transferrable
> Voting for ARIN Elections
>
> All of this is gaming no matter how you slice it.
>
> Silly me. I looked at the title and thought efforts were under way to stop
> one person from casting votes for companies they don?t actually work for but
> I didn?t read that in the write up. I would have thought we?d start there?
> if anything needs modification?
>
> Marla Azinger | SPVR, IP Management
> O 585-413-9128 | [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> <image015.png><image016.png><image017.png> <image018.png> www.frontier.com
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.frontier.com__;!!M2UytebrhrTR!c2ZEjGLTpLzzB0NcqRhddq0ebLp4mUbzhD5ajlW6BmGWGO6t7IJUsP104CKB559o$>
>
>
> From: ARIN-consult <[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>> On Behalf Of Andrew Dul
> Sent: Monday, January 10, 2022 11:40 AM
> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [ARIN-consult] Consultation on Implementing Single Transferrable
> Voting for ARIN Elections
>
> WARNING: External email. Please verify sender before opening attachments or
> clicking on links.
>
>
> Perhaps a simple question, but "how" will the current board insure that
> future board(s) do not capriciously change the election mechanisms in the
> future?
>
> Making the changes to the "election process" subject to a majority vote of
> the membership and having that right inserted into the bylaws might be one
> method...
>
> Thanks,
> Andrew
>
> On 1/7/2022 10:31 AM, Peter Harrison wrote:
> Adam,
>
> As stated before, it is the Board's fiduciary responsibility to ensure that a
> change of this magnitude is equitable and not vulnerable to capricious
> change. We will act appropriately based on this feedback.
>
> Peter
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 10:03 AM Adam Thompson <[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> Peter, I don?t have a problem with STV. I do have a problem with the board
> having the latitude ? unfettered ? to keep changing voting systems without
> further bylaw amendments. The type of voting structure, particularly when
> deviating from the norm that?s baked into Virginia law, should then be baked
> into the bylaws so that it can?t change in the middle of the night, perhaps
> even during an election.
>
> Do I trust the current board to not pull stuff like that? Yeah, probably, I
> think... (In fact, can I even name the current board members? No. But
> that?s a different problem.) Am I willing to blindly trust every future
> board that might exist? Absolutely not. I?ve seen how boards can be
> co-opted, infiltrated, and/or ?turned to the dark side? (so to speak)
> elsewhere.
>
> As far as the consultation?s goal to determine whether STV is OK or not?
> Yes, it is good. This is an excellent move overall.
>
> -Adam
>
> Adam Thompson
> Consultant, Infrastructure Services
> <image014.png>
> 100 - 135 Innovation Drive
> Winnipeg, MB, R3T 6A8
> (204) 977-6824 or 1-800-430-6404 (MB only)
> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> www.merlin.mb.ca
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.merlin.mb.ca/__;!!M2UytebrhrTR!ZZ9nY7Iqm8q8pZkxsQXDwXKKBYnBxxrhgUQsk72I0lQSknZQozPO16VzGTEuxAE9$>
>
> From: ARIN-consult <[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>> On Behalf Of Peter Harrison
> Sent: Friday, January 7, 2022 11:53 AM
> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [ARIN-consult] Consultation on Implementing Single Transferrable
> Voting for ARIN Elections
>
> Dear Community,
>
> With STV there are many ways to re-allocate votes, and new ones may be
> invented. The videos presented previously illustrated one method.
>
> This link explains some of the options:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked_voting#Comparison_of_ranked_voting_methods
>
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked_voting*Comparison_of_ranked_voting_methods__;Iw!!M2UytebrhrTR!ZZ9nY7Iqm8q8pZkxsQXDwXKKBYnBxxrhgUQsk72I0lQSknZQozPO16VzGa2rUE66$>
>
> We will need to balance the range of options with those provided by current
> and future vendors of ARIN?s voting systems. Investigations are being made by
> staff and they will make recommendations to the board based on their research
> into our needs, best practices, practicability, relative merit, legal
> implications and systems availability.
>
> The purpose of the consultation is to get a sense of whether this is a good
> idea overall. The board will work hard to ensure that we are working in the
> best interest of the members and the region they serve when evaluating the
> choices presented.
>
> As John explained, the bylaw modification was made to accommodate multiple
> forms of voting that may be required in future. The concern that this could
> lead to opportunistic changes to systems each election cycle is sound. We
> will investigate ways to ensure this does not happen with possible bylaw
> wording to meet these and other goals.
>
> The Governance Working Group has worked very closely with both the executive
> team and staff on this consultation. Their support for a workable solution
> and concern for the membership has been evident every step of the way. These
> consultations are the result of over two years of research and were not taken
> lightly. We will continue to work to maintain this excellent collaboration.
>
> Thank you for your feedback.
>
> Peter
>
>
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