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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user (Scott Leibrand)
2. Re: Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user (McTim)
3. Re: Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user
(Alexander, Daniel)
4. Re: Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user (Bill Darte)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 14:50:01 -0700
From: Scott Leibrand <[email protected]>
To: William Herrin <[email protected]>
Cc: ARIN-PPML List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user
Message-ID:
<cagkmwz48bixqwh_vu49jgfjy-ylmdt3vq5fquxyxyqgh0ag...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 2:31 PM, William Herrin <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 4:41 PM, Scott Leibrand <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> > I would propose that the primary difference between ISPs/LIRs vs.
> end-users,
> > for purposes of the NRPM, is whether an organization reassigns address
> > blocks to third parties. If an organization maintains full control of
> all
> > of the equipment on its network, and doesn't need to make any
> reassignments
> > to other organizations, then it can qualify as an end-user. In
> particular,
> > an end user organization must be able to supply a full list of all the IP
> > addresses in use on its network, and know what devices are using those
> > addresses.
>
> Hi Scott,
>
> Keep it simple:
>
> 1. There is no LIR. Only ISP. I get the distinction but it's
> needlessly confusing for everybody who isn't steeped in ARIN policy.
>
I was considering a global search-and-replace of LIR with ISP. If people
think that'd be helpful, I'd be happy to include that change in the policy
proposal.
(FWIW, the term LIR is primarily used by some of the other RIRs, and the
main reason it's in ARIN policy was that the IPv6 policy was originally a
globally coordinated policy that used common language with all the other
RIRs. But we can change it if we feel like it.)
>
> 2. If you don't claim to be an end user, you're an ISP subject to all
> rules, privileges and fees.
>
> 3. If no portion of your justification for IP addresses is based on
> assignment to and opaque use by a third party you may claim to be an
> end-user subject to end-user rules, privileges and fees.
>
Yes, I think those summarize the distinction I'm trying to draw.
-Scott
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 22:12:45 -0400
From: McTim <[email protected]>
To: Owen DeLong <[email protected]>
Cc: ARIN-PPML List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user
Message-ID:
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On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 8:06 PM, Owen DeLong <[email protected]> wrote:
<snip>
>
> For policy purposes, LIR and ISP are identical. However, if you were going
> to eliminate a term from policy, the term ISP would be the one to eliminate.
+1
>
> An ISP which fits into the ISP/LIR policy category is, by definition an LIR.
>
> It is possible, however, for an LIR to exist which is not actually an ISP.
right.
--
Cheers,
McTim
"A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A
route indicates how we get there." Jon Postel
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 03:37:49 +0000
From: "Alexander, Daniel" <[email protected]>
To: ARIN-PPML List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user
Message-ID:
<b64177493f39ba4a81233aa84b50049e9b8a5...@pacdcexmb12.cable.comcast.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hello All,
I would be curious to hear people's opinions of whether the distinctions are
still necessary within ARIN policy. Once the IPv4 free pool is depleted, and
the policies become focused on processing transfers, do we need to distinguish
between End Users, non-End Users, and PA vs PI within ARIN policy?
What are the criteria in which these distinctions matter, and will they still
apply next year?
Dan
ARIN AC
From: Scott Leibrand <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 13:41:56 -0700
To: ARIN-PPML List <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Subject: [arin-ppml] Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user
At ARIN 31 last week, Leslie's Policy Experience Report (slides at
https://www.arin.net/participate/meetings/reports/ARIN_31/PDF/monday/nobile_policy.pdf
or
https://www.arin.net/participate/meetings/reports/ARIN_31/PPT/monday/nobile_policy.pptx)
reported that, in ARIN staff's experience, the NRPM does not adequately define
ISP/LIR vs. end-user. For example, by literally applying the existing
definitions as currently written, my employer would be neither an ISP nor and
end-user, because while they do not *primarily* assign address space to users,
neither do they *exclusively* use it in their own networks. So I think those
definitions need a few tweaks.
I would propose that the primary difference between ISPs/LIRs vs. end-users,
for purposes of the NRPM, is whether an organization reassigns address blocks
to third parties. If an organization maintains full control of all of the
equipment on its network, and doesn't need to make any reassignments to other
organizations, then it can qualify as an end-user. In particular, an end user
organization must be able to supply a full list of all the IP addresses in use
on its network, and know what devices are using those addresses.
An ISP/LIR, on the other hand, should be defined by whether they delegate that
responsibility to another organization. In that case, they need to reassign
the network space via SWIP/rwhois, which makes them an LIR.
I understand that there are other considerations, such as the expectation in
the security community that addresses within an ISP allocation are generally
controlled by third parties, whereas addresses in an end-user assignment are
generally controlled by the end-user organization. However, I don't believe
it's practical to try to draw a distinction there: rather, organizations can
decide for themselves whether they need to make reassignments (for that or
several other reasons), and that decision can drive whether they are considered
an ISP/LIR or end-user for purposes of ARIN policy.
In light of the above, I would propose the following revised definitions:
2.4. Local Internet Registry (LIR)
The terms Internet Service Provider (ISP) and LIR are used interchangeably in
this document. A Local Internet Registry (LIR) is an IR that assigns address
space to the users of the network services that it provides. Therefore, LIRs /
ISPs are organizations that reassign addresses to end users and/or reallocate
addresses to other ISPs/LIRs.
2.6. End-user
An end-user is an organization receiving assignments of IP addresses
exclusively for use in its operational networks, and does not register any
reassignments of that space.
Thoughts? Should I submit this as a policy proposal?
-Scott
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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 06:21:15 -0500
From: Bill Darte <[email protected]>
To: "Alexander, Daniel" <[email protected]>
Cc: ARIN-PPML List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user
Message-ID:
<camapp37grkshqwpzdmw9t_y3jtx0kwjgikxqyhobnmchkhq...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
The distinction between end user and ISP that seemed to have value in early
v4 policy is the PI addresses gave the holder flexibility to choose between
ISPs for their announcements and access. If anyone's address availability
is through the transfer market, then I suggest that is all PI addressing at
that point and would remove that one distinction at least.
bd
On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 10:37 PM, Alexander, Daniel <
[email protected]> wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> I would be curious to hear people's opinions of whether the distinctions
> are still necessary within ARIN policy. Once the IPv4 free pool is
> depleted, and the policies become focused on processing transfers, do we
> need to distinguish between End Users, non-End Users, and PA vs PI within
> ARIN policy?
>
> What are the criteria in which these distinctions matter, and will they
> still apply next year?
>
> Dan
> ARIN AC
>
> From: Scott Leibrand <[email protected]>
> Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 13:41:56 -0700
> To: ARIN-PPML List <[email protected]>
> Subject: [arin-ppml] Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user
>
> At ARIN 31 last week, Leslie's Policy Experience Report (slides at
> https://www.arin.net/participate/meetings/reports/ARIN_31/PDF/monday/nobile_policy.pdfor
> https://www.arin.net/participate/meetings/reports/ARIN_31/PPT/monday/nobile_policy.pptx)
> reported that, in ARIN staff's experience, the NRPM does not adequately
> define ISP/LIR vs. end-user. For example, by literally applying the
> existing definitions as currently written, my employer would be neither an
> ISP nor and end-user, because while they do not *primarily* assign address
> space to users, neither do they *exclusively* use it in their own
> networks. So I think those definitions need a few tweaks.
>
> I would propose that the primary difference between ISPs/LIRs vs.
> end-users, for purposes of the NRPM, is whether an organization reassigns
> address blocks to third parties. If an organization maintains full control
> of all of the equipment on its network, and doesn't need to make any
> reassignments to other organizations, then it can qualify as an end-user.
> In particular, an end user organization must be able to supply a full list
> of all the IP addresses in use on its network, and know what devices are
> using those addresses.
>
> An ISP/LIR, on the other hand, should be defined by whether they
> delegate that responsibility to another organization. In that case, they
> need to reassign the network space via SWIP/rwhois, which makes them an LIR.
>
> I understand that there are other considerations, such as the
> expectation in the security community that addresses within an ISP
> allocation are generally controlled by third parties, whereas addresses in
> an end-user assignment are generally controlled by the end-user
> organization. However, I don't believe it's practical to try to draw a
> distinction there: rather, organizations can decide for themselves whether
> they need to make reassignments (for that or several other reasons), and
> that decision can drive whether they are considered an ISP/LIR or end-user
> for purposes of ARIN policy.
>
> In light of the above, I would propose the following revised definitions:
>
> 2.4. Local Internet Registry (LIR)
> The terms Internet Service Provider (ISP) and LIR are used interchangeably
> in this document. A Local Internet Registry (LIR) is an IR that assigns
> address space to the users of the network services that it provides.
> Therefore, LIRs / ISPs are organizations that reassign addresses to end
> users and/or reallocate addresses to other ISPs/LIRs.
>
> 2.6. End-user
> An end-user is an organization receiving assignments of IP addresses
> exclusively for use in its operational networks, and does not register any
> reassignments of that space.
>
> Thoughts? Should I submit this as a policy proposal?
>
> -Scott
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