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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user (Dani Roisman)
2. Re: Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user (John Curran)
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Message: 1
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 13:11:06 +0000
From: Dani Roisman <[email protected]>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user
Message-ID:
<C40B18ECB19B374EBB7B033835339F1D7A2D7C28@SM-DAG156.softlayer.local>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
| Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 14:50:01 -0700
| From: Scott Leibrand <[email protected]>
| To: William Herrin <[email protected]>
| Cc: ARIN-PPML List <[email protected]>
| Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user
| Message-ID:
| <CAGkMwz48biXqwh_vU49JgfjY-
| [email protected]>
| Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
|
| On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 2:31 PM, William Herrin <[email protected]> wrote:
|
| > On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 4:41 PM, Scott Leibrand
| <[email protected]>
| > wrote:
| > > I would propose that the primary difference between ISPs/LIRs vs.
| > end-users,
| > > for purposes of the NRPM, is whether an organization reassigns address
| > > blocks to third parties. If an organization maintains full control of
| > all
| > > of the equipment on its network, and doesn't need to make any
| > reassignments
| > > to other organizations, then it can qualify as an end-user. In
| > particular,
| > > an end user organization must be able to supply a full list of all the IP
| > > addresses in use on its network, and know what devices are using those
| > > addresses.
| >
| > Hi Scott,
| >
| > Keep it simple:
| >
| > 1. There is no LIR. Only ISP. I get the distinction but it's
| > needlessly confusing for everybody who isn't steeped in ARIN policy.
| >
|
| I was considering a global search-and-replace of LIR with ISP. If people
| think that'd be helpful, I'd be happy to include that change in the policy
| proposal.
|
| (FWIW, the term LIR is primarily used by some of the other RIRs, and the
| main reason it's in ARIN policy was that the IPv6 policy was originally a
| globally coordinated policy that used common language with all the other
| RIRs. But we can change it if we feel like it.)
|
Here's the way I understand the history of these terms, and have explained to
others why ARIN says "ISP" but the other RIRs say "LIR" and really mean the
same thing:
ARIN policy is written with a North-American bias, where there are a very small
number of countries, the language is primarily English, and the culture and
manner of doing business on the Internet is fairly standard throughout the
region. ARIN typically assigns to two different types of members:
* end-user organizations = large companies, large content hosters who
exclusively use the IPs on their equipment
* ISP organizations = network operators who then issue pieces of those IP
allocations to their down-stream customers for use on customer-owned/operated
equipment
The other RIR's service a larger number of countries, with diverse language
sets and cultures, and thus the term "LIR" (local Internet registry) was used
to describe the practice of end-users typically receiving IPs from providers
"local" to them.
However, I've always thought of LIR/ISP as interchangeable terms, depending on
who's policy you happen to be reading at the time.
My vote goes towards a global replacement of "ISP" in all ARIN documents with
the term "LIR" in order to match the language used by the other 4 RIRs. I
would then support an brief statement early in the NRPM which explains that
"The term LIR has replaced the term ISP formerly used in ARIN policy documents
in order to simplify the global understanding of RIR policy documents. The
definition of LIR exactly matches the previous definition of ISP for the
purpose of the ARIN NRPM." (well, something like that, you get the point).
----
Dani Roisman
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 14:17:53 +0000
From: John Curran <[email protected]>
To: Dani Roisman <[email protected]>
Cc: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user
Message-ID:
<[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
On Apr 30, 2013, at 9:11 AM, Dani Roisman <[email protected]> wrote:
> | On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 2:31 PM, William Herrin <[email protected]> wrote:
> | >...
> | > Keep it simple:
> | >
> | > 1. There is no LIR. Only ISP. I get the distinction but it's
> | > needlessly confusing for everybody who isn't steeped in ARIN policy.
> | >
> |
> | I was considering a global search-and-replace of LIR with ISP. If people
> | think that'd be helpful, I'd be happy to include that change in the policy
> | proposal.
> |
> | (FWIW, the term LIR is primarily used by some of the other RIRs, and the
> | main reason it's in ARIN policy was that the IPv6 policy was originally a
> | globally coordinated policy that used common language with all the other
> | RIRs. But we can change it if we feel like it.)
>
> Here's the way I understand the history of these terms, and have explained to
> others why ARIN says "ISP" but the other RIRs say "LIR" and really mean the
> same thing:
>
> ARIN policy is written with a North-American bias, where there are a very
> small number of countries, the language is primarily English, and the culture
> and manner of doing business on the Internet is fairly standard throughout
> the region. ARIN typically assigns to two different types of members:
> * end-user organizations = large companies, large content hosters who
> exclusively use the IPs on their equipment
> * ISP organizations = network operators who then issue pieces of those IP
> allocations to their down-stream customers for use on customer-owned/operated
> equipment
>
> The other RIR's service a larger number of countries, with diverse language
> sets and cultures, and thus the term "LIR" (local Internet registry) was used
> to describe the practice of end-users typically receiving IPs from providers
> "local" to them.
Note that ARIN serves more than 25 countries at present
<https://www.arin.net/knowledge/rirs/ARINcountries.html>
and used to serve both South America and Sub-Saharan Africa
(i.e. "Rest of World" (ROW) region, which was everything outside
of RIPE NCC and APNIC regions)
It is true that we use one language for the registry (English),
and "ISP" is a well recognized term in that language.
> However, I've always thought of LIR/ISP as interchangeable terms, depending
> on who's policy you happen to be reading at the time.
They generally are, reference the "LIR" definition in NRPM 2.4
<https://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#two4>
"A Local Internet Registry (LIR) is an IR that primarily assigns address
space to the users of the network services that it provides. LIRs are
generally Internet Service Providers (ISPs), whose customers are primarily
end users and possibly other ISPs."
and then NRPM 6.5 -
"6.5.1. Terminology
? The terms ISP and LIR are used interchangeably in this document and any
use of either term shall be construed to include both meanings."
> My vote goes towards a global replacement of "ISP" in all ARIN documents with
> the term "LIR" in order to match the language used by the other 4 RIRs. I
> would then support an brief statement early in the NRPM which explains that
> "The term LIR has replaced the term ISP formerly used in ARIN policy
> documents in order to simplify the global understanding of RIR policy
> documents. The definition of LIR exactly matches the previous definition of
> ISP for the purpose of the ARIN NRPM." (well, something like that, you get
> the point).
Easy enough to accomplish, if folks believe that the end result will be more
clear than present approach.
FYI,
/John
John Curran
President and CEO
ARIN
------------------------------
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