Rocky, Many such 8.2 transfers are efforts to get ARIN's records up to date regarding M&A transactions that happened years ago. It is not possible for a no-longer-existent entity to execute the 8.3 transfer, so it has to be 8.2 transferred to the new entity first.
Scott > On Apr 3, 2014, at 6:02 PM, Rocky <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hello there, > > What you are planning to do seems like you try to disguise an 8.3 transfer > as an 8.2 transfer. > I do not think it is appropriate for allowing an 8.2 transfer followed by an > 8.3/8.4 transfer. > > If the company does not need the IPv4 and the IPv4 are lack of utilisation, > why not ask this company to return the IPv4 for the benefit of the community? > > If the company wants to sell the IPv4 after an 8.2 to buyers through an > 8.3/8.4, why not the company directly transfer the IPv4 from its original > organisation instead of doing an 8.2 first then followed by an 8.3/8.4 > transfer. Are the seller trying to hide something or as the seller is > afraid of doing something against the policy, so they try to make such an > arrangement? > > There is a highly suspicious of “ IPv4 laundry” or “IPv4 speculation” about > this company. Maybe we need more transparency of the buy&sale of the IPv4 > to make sure the behaviour of the seller is compatible with policy. > > I suggest to resolve the language conflict between 8.2 transfer policy and > RSA and further to suggest to figure out some measures to stop the > speculation on IPv4 via an 8.2 then followed by an 8.3/8.4 transfer. If > the company does not use the IPv4 after an 8.2 transfer, why not return them > to free pool for the benefit of the whole community? > > Any ideas on this ? > > >> On Friday, April 4, 2014 at 7:43 AM, [email protected] wrote: >> >> Send ARIN-PPML mailing list submissions to >> [email protected] >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> [email protected] >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> [email protected] >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of ARIN-PPML digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: ARIN-PPML Digest, Vol 106, Issue 7 (Chris R. Squatritto) >> 2. Re: Draft Policy ARIN-2014-9: Resolve Conflict Between RSA >> and 8.2 Utilization Requirements (John Curran) >> 3. Re: Draft Policy ARIN-2014-9: Resolve Conflict Between RSA >> and 8.2 Utilization Requirements (Milton L Mueller) >> 4. Re: Draft Policy ARIN-2014-9: Resolve Conflict Between RSA >> and 8.2 Utilization Requirements (xiaofan yang) >> 5. Re: Draft Policy ARIN-2014-9: Resolve Conflict Between RSA >> and 8.2 Utilization Requirements (xiaofan yang) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 16:30:45 -0700 >> From: "Chris R. Squatritto" <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-PPML Digest, Vol 106, Issue 7 >> Message-ID: >> <[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> I am out of the office this week and will not be checking email. Please >> contact Troy Miller for assistance.. >> >> Thank you for contacting me, and have a great day. >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/attachments/20140402/5723c721/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 23:59:20 +0000 >> From: John Curran <[email protected]> >> To: xiaofan yang <[email protected]> >> Cc: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2014-9: Resolve Conflict >> Between RSA and 8.2 Utilization Requirements >> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >>> On Apr 2, 2014, at 4:27 PM, xiaofan yang <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Hi John, >>> >>> I have further enquiry about ARIN 8.2 process. >>> >>> Number one:I am also worried about the costs of doing a 8.2 transfer >>> followed by a 8.3 transfer. I wonder if I will have to involve the legal >>> help to deal with ARIN legal. In my case I bought a company that now is out >>> of business. How complicated does ARIN make this process? I want some >>> assurance that I will be treated equally to any other companies whether it >>> is a big company or a small company like us. >> >> Niki - >> >> You will be treated equally, but in truth I'm not certain that is actually >> what you want... >> (for example, a process which seems routine for a large organization could >> still pose >> a disproportionate burden to a smaller organization since organization size >> is not a >> factor in the verification process.) >> >> The first and foremost activity is to make sure that we have your >> organization registered >> as the rightful address holder, and that will require an NRPM 8.2 transfer. >> It can actually >> be relatively straightforward process, as long as you have clear >> documentation of the >> purchase of the company. Review the instructions here for additional >> information about >> what is accepted - >> <https://www.arin.net/resources/request/transfers_8_2.html> >> >>> Number two: If we do a 8.2 transfer followed by a 8.3 transfer, will the >>> stated purpose for our number resources remains the same?? I am afraid of >>> that ARIN will not approve our transfer. >> >> If you are the clear party with the rights after your purchase, ARIN will >> approve your >> transfer. We may note that you have more addresses than you now need, and >> thus >> we expect you to return or transfer the remainder (but that would seem to >> line up with >> your intentions in any case.) >> >> If you have purchased a company without adequate documentation, or if >> multiple >> parties purchased multiple pieces of the company, or if there some question >> about >> what was purchased based on the documentation, then it can be more >> challenging >> to get the resources appropriately listed with you as the rightful holder. >> You will need >> to apply for the transfer and work with the ARIN Hostmaster to determine if >> there is >> any issue in your particular case. >> >>> Number three: As we have bought the company, do we have the property right >>> on those IPs? in our past agreement and future agreement arranged for 8.3, >>> we would like to have some kinds of property right on those IPs, will that >>> conflict with ARIN policy? >> >> Wonderful question - it is ARIN's position that you have a specific set of >> rights to the >> address blocks in the registry (as defined by the registration services >> agreement that >> you enter with ARIN), and these rights include: >> >> (1) The exclusive right to be the registrant of the Included Number >> Resources within the ARIN database; >> (2) The right to use the Included Number Resources within the ARIN database; >> and >> (3) The right to transfer the registration of the Included Number Resources >> pursuant to the Policies. >> >> ARIN registration services agreement includes a specific disclaimer of >> property rights >> in the address blocks, as it is inconsistent with the ability to manage the >> address blocks >> in accordance with community-developed policy in the region. If you have >> other beliefs >> with respect to your rights, that would probably be an area for you to seek >> legal advice. >> >> I hope this helps; please do not hesitate to ask if you have any additional >> questions. >> >> Thanks! >> /John >> >> John Curran >> President and CEO >> ARIN >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 15:33:13 +0000 >> From: Milton L Mueller <[email protected]> >> To: "'John Curran'" <[email protected]>, xiaofan yang >> <[email protected]> >> Cc: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2014-9: Resolve Conflict >> Between RSA and 8.2 Utilization Requirements >> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> Niki: >> For most economists and lawyers, the definition of a "property right" >> involves the right to use, the right to exclude others from using, and the >> right to transfer. As John's message makes clear, all those rights are >> present in the number block lease you get from ARIN. So although the RSA >> makes you formally declaim a property right, what you are getting from the >> RSA is a bundle of rights that for all practical purposes has the same >> economic features as a property right. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> Wonderful question - it is ARIN's position that you have a specific set of >> rights to the address blocks in the registry (as defined by the registration >> services agreement that you enter with ARIN), and these rights include: >> >> (1) The exclusive right to be the registrant of the Included Number >> Resources within the ARIN database; >> (2) The right to use the Included Number Resources within the ARIN database; >> and >> (3) The right to transfer the registration of the Included Number Resources >> pursuant to the Policies. >> >> ARIN registration services agreement includes a specific disclaimer of >> property rights in the address blocks, as it is inconsistent with the >> ability to manage the address blocks in accordance with community-developed >> policy in the region. If you have other beliefs with respect to your rights, >> that would probably be an area for you to seek legal advice. >> >> I hope this helps; please do not hesitate to ask if you have any additional >> questions. >> >> Thanks! >> /John >> >> John Curran >> President and CEO >> ARIN >> >> _______________________________________________ >> PPML >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Public >> Policy Mailing List ([email protected]). >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >> Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues. >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 07:33:04 +0800 >> From: xiaofan yang <[email protected]> >> To: John Curran <[email protected]> >> Cc: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2014-9: Resolve Conflict >> Between RSA and 8.2 Utilization Requirements >> Message-ID: >> <caphl6mpzkw1q2cw9+sfz+hap6ecwns6jzdbep+xvk8df7vm...@mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> Hi John, >> >> >> In basis of your reply, if the block is underutilised,ARIN will either ask >> the company to return the IPs or transfer to other third party via 8.3 >> transfer after our 8.2 transfer. >> >> >> Say we have two /16 after this 8.2 transfer, what if we only transfer one >> /16 to the other third party via 8.3 transfer, meanwhile, we keep the >> other /16 left unused after our 8.2 transfer for quiet a while. Will ARIN >> ask us to return the remained /16 to the free pool? furthmore, how long >> will ARIN allow us to keep the other /16 unused before we transfer it to >> the third party via 8.3 transfer ? >> >> >> >> Niki >> >> >> >> >>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 7:59 AM, John Curran <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> On Apr 2, 2014, at 4:27 PM, xiaofan yang <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi John, >>>> >>>> I have further enquiry about ARIN 8.2 process. >>>> >>>> Number one:I am also worried about the costs of doing a 8.2 transfer >>> followed by a 8.3 transfer. I wonder if I will have to involve the legal >>> help to deal with ARIN legal. In my case I bought a company that now is >>> out of business. How complicated does ARIN make this process? I want some >>> assurance that I will be treated equally to any other companies whether it >>> is a big company or a small company like us. >>> >>> Niki - >>> >>> You will be treated equally, but in truth I'm not certain that is actually >>> what you want... >>> (for example, a process which seems routine for a large organization could >>> still pose >>> a disproportionate burden to a smaller organization since organization >>> size is not a >>> factor in the verification process.) >>> >>> The first and foremost activity is to make sure that we have your >>> organization registered >>> as the rightful address holder, and that will require an NRPM 8.2 >>> transfer. It can actually >>> be relatively straightforward process, as long as you have clear >>> documentation of the >>> purchase of the company. Review the instructions here for additional >>> information about >>> what is accepted - < >>> https://www.arin.net/resources/request/transfers_8_2.html> >>> >>>> Number two: If we do a 8.2 transfer followed by a 8.3 transfer, will >>> the stated purpose for our number resources remains the same?? I am afraid >>> of that ARIN will not approve our transfer. >>> >>> If you are the clear party with the rights after your purchase, ARIN will >>> approve your >>> transfer. We may note that you have more addresses than you now need, and >>> thus >>> we expect you to return or transfer the remainder (but that would seem to >>> line up with >>> your intentions in any case.) >>> >>> If you have purchased a company without adequate documentation, or if >>> multiple >>> parties purchased multiple pieces of the company, or if there some >>> question about >>> what was purchased based on the documentation, then it can be more >>> challenging >>> to get the resources appropriately listed with you as the rightful holder. >>> You will need >>> to apply for the transfer and work with the ARIN Hostmaster to determine >>> if there is >>> any issue in your particular case. >>> >>>> Number three: As we have bought the company, do we have the property >>> right on those IPs? in our past agreement and future agreement arranged >>> for 8.3, we would like to have some kinds of property right on those IPs, >>> will that conflict with ARIN policy? >>> >>> Wonderful question - it is ARIN's position that you have a specific set of >>> rights to the >>> address blocks in the registry (as defined by the registration services >>> agreement that >>> you enter with ARIN), and these rights include: >>> >>> (1) The exclusive right to be the registrant of the Included Number >>> Resources within the ARIN database; >>> (2) The right to use the Included Number Resources within the ARIN >>> database; and >>> (3) The right to transfer the registration of the Included Number >>> Resources pursuant to the Policies. >>> >>> ARIN registration services agreement includes a specific disclaimer of >>> property rights >>> in the address blocks, as it is inconsistent with the ability to manage >>> the address blocks >>> in accordance with community-developed policy in the region. If you have >>> other beliefs >>> with respect to your rights, that would probably be an area for you to >>> seek legal advice. >>> >>> I hope this helps; please do not hesitate to ask if you have any >>> additional questions. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> /John >>> >>> John Curran >>> President and CEO >>> ARIN >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/attachments/20140404/fd4aa749/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 5 >> Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 07:43:43 +0800 >> From: xiaofan yang <[email protected]> >> To: Milton L Mueller <[email protected]> >> Cc: John Curran <[email protected]>, "[email protected]" >> <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2014-9: Resolve Conflict >> Between RSA and 8.2 Utilization Requirements >> Message-ID: >> <CAPhL6MrQdn-=5g8zksntvpvca7prrwuwlxcaitrgv2d672w...@mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> Hi Milton, >> >> thanks for your inspiring reply. Now i know that we have the "ownership" >> of those IPs. as you are one of the AC, i take your reply seriously and >> also this is good news for the community, especially for those legacy >> holders, if the holder of ARIN non-legacy IPs can have the "ownership' >> then the holder of legacy IPs definitely has the ownership on their IPs >> no matter whether they sign the RSA , LRSA or not. >> >> Hope ARIN will not impose unpredictable "restrictions" when legacy or >> non-legacy holder begins its transfer request. Moreover, when ARIN reject >> a transfer , hope ARIN will not use the "confidential terms" as an excuse >> for not reply communities' questions in ppml. or ARIN will reply with >> bunch of info mean nothing. >> Niki >> >> >>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 11:33 PM, Milton L Mueller <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Niki: >>> For most economists and lawyers, the definition of a "property right" >>> involves the right to use, the right to exclude others from using, and the >>> right to transfer. As John's message makes clear, all those rights are >>> present in the number block lease you get from ARIN. So although the RSA >>> makes you formally declaim a property right, what you are getting from the >>> RSA is a bundle of rights that for all practical purposes has the same >>> economic features as a property right. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >>> Wonderful question - it is ARIN's position that you have a specific set of >>> rights to the address blocks in the registry (as defined by the >>> registration services agreement that you enter with ARIN), and these rights >>> include: >>> >>> (1) The exclusive right to be the registrant of the Included Number >>> Resources within the ARIN database; >>> (2) The right to use the Included Number Resources within the ARIN >>> database; and >>> (3) The right to transfer the registration of the Included Number >>> Resources pursuant to the Policies. >>> >>> ARIN registration services agreement includes a specific disclaimer of >>> property rights in the address blocks, as it is inconsistent with the >>> ability to manage the address blocks in accordance with community-developed >>> policy in the region. If you have other beliefs with respect to your >>> rights, that would probably be an area for you to seek legal advice. >>> >>> I hope this helps; please do not hesitate to ask if you have any >>> additional questions. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> /John >>> >>> John Curran >>> President and CEO >>> ARIN >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> PPML >>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN >>> Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]). >>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >>> Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues. >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/attachments/20140404/57c3a01e/attachment.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARIN-PPML mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >> >> End of ARIN-PPML Digest, Vol 106, Issue 8 >> ***************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > PPML > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml > Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues.
_______________________________________________ PPML You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues.
